Jarthur001
Active Member
It was a post in a joking way.skypair said:
You know how you say I follow Calvin.
You always post Rogers.
However seeing that I hurt you I must say I'm sorry.
Please forgive.
raying:
-
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The tale of two sons.
- Thread starter Jarthur001
- Start date
You know how you say I follow Calvin.
You always post Rogers.
However seeing that I hurt you I must say I'm sorry.
Please forgive.
raying:Jarthur001
Active Member
Allan said:
I will tonight...
I'm just doing quick post today.
Sorry..i just saw this..
NO..I do not feel the pharisees were saved, but God knows the heart.
Christ had the hardiest words for them. They are one of two enemies of grace. This is what I think is the main point of the story. The younger is often seen as the MAIN guy in the story. But Christ was talking to the pharisees when he tells this story, and the older son is all about them.
That's the way it see it anyway.
James,
I do not think I have ever heard this view of this parable. It makes a lot of sense and I am able to see it in the scripture. When it was first mentioned, I was drawn to a scripture:
Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is My son, even my first born.
I am not saying the scriptures are related, but it makes one think. It certainly deserves more study.
God bless and many blessings!!!
I do not think I have ever heard this view of this parable. It makes a lot of sense and I am able to see it in the scripture. When it was first mentioned, I was drawn to a scripture:
Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the Lord, Israel is My son, even my first born.
I am not saying the scriptures are related, but it makes one think. It certainly deserves more study.
God bless and many blessings!!!
Jarthur001
Active Member
Outsider said:
May God be praised.
Jarthur001
Active Member
The way I would tell the story.
Part 1
"There was a man who had two sons.
This passage I feel is a look at the type of sinners we find in mankind. One has no regard for Christ and the other tries to work his way to heaven. Both stand against the cross of Christ. Christ tells this story to the Pharisees showing that they stand as guilty as the lawless sinner. Good works do not make one saved. That is the point of the story.
12And the younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.' And he divided his property between them.
The younger son shows his selfish sin in wanting things and wanting them now. In this way the younger son is showing more love for the things of this world then love for the Father (God). In fact, he is saying he wished his father were dead. At the death of the father the son would get property coming to him. The son in saying he wanted his stuff now, was showing no respect for the father and wished the time would come he was no longer under the father. He wanted his father dead. Dead in that he did not want his father to control what was coming to him, but he (the son) wanted to control them. The younger sons actions is like the lawless of this world. They do not want to deal with God and even say he is dead. All they want is the pleasures of life.
13Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living.
The son takes what the father gives him. The loving father blesses both sons with many things. The younger son in his lust to have his own way leaves any thoughts of the father behind and lives a life where he is not forced to be reminded of his father. He moves to another land and follows his lust for pleasure for this is the life he longed for. Many a sinner see life this very way. They want nothing to do with church and God. They live life as far away from the things of God for they see God as a foolish thought. They want stuff and more stuff and live to gain stuff in reckless living. They fail to remember that all blessing come from God. They fail to understand that all blessing could stop at any time. They think of enjoying as it is seen in short happy feeling when new stuff becomes their own. When the happiness is gone, the joy is gone and they need to have more stuff to be happy. They never think of God for to them God is dead, just as the younger son has done in the story.
14And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need.
The younger son ran out of money. The son needed more things to bring back his need of pleasure, but there was no way to get more things. The pleasure that came as he filled it with stuff, was now just a longing that could not be filled. On top of this severe famine came on the land he had gone to escape his father. This made it even harder to find the money needed to get more stuff. As the famine went on, the longing for pleasure changed into a desire to have what was needed to live. All the extra things now meant very little.
God does this very thing to the lawless sinner. It lets him go his own way. God gives him over to his own lust and sin. Sin always will lead to an empty feeling. Chasing pleasure will only take your money and still leave you wanting more. Notice just as in our story of the two sons, all blessings come from God. We can use the blessings and worship the blessing giver or worship the blessings and the blessings will use us. They will use control our thinking till we have nothing left.
God also brings into our life what I call “life check” moments. This we see in the story where God brought a famine. The younger son thought he needed more money to bring a happy feeling. But God did not give him more money because the son had a greater need. In fact God not only did not give the son more, he took more from him. That need that God wanted to show the son he needed was God.
God brought the famine as he also brings other hard times in our own life to make us think of what really matters. Once the son wanted the extra stuff and good time pleasure, but because of the famine God has shown the son he is not in control and blessing come from God, and the little extra stuff he found pleasure in are not that important when it comes to life itself. God brought him to the point where the other things in life did not matter. He was down and out and this was not just because he had no money. If the famine had not come, chances are the son would have kept trying to have fun and pleasure, and get it by working on the side. God blessed the son by bringing hard times in the famine that in the end will bring him to think of God.
what do you think so far?
Part 1
"There was a man who had two sons.
This passage I feel is a look at the type of sinners we find in mankind. One has no regard for Christ and the other tries to work his way to heaven. Both stand against the cross of Christ. Christ tells this story to the Pharisees showing that they stand as guilty as the lawless sinner. Good works do not make one saved. That is the point of the story.
12And the younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.' And he divided his property between them.
The younger son shows his selfish sin in wanting things and wanting them now. In this way the younger son is showing more love for the things of this world then love for the Father (God). In fact, he is saying he wished his father were dead. At the death of the father the son would get property coming to him. The son in saying he wanted his stuff now, was showing no respect for the father and wished the time would come he was no longer under the father. He wanted his father dead. Dead in that he did not want his father to control what was coming to him, but he (the son) wanted to control them. The younger sons actions is like the lawless of this world. They do not want to deal with God and even say he is dead. All they want is the pleasures of life.
13Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living.
The son takes what the father gives him. The loving father blesses both sons with many things. The younger son in his lust to have his own way leaves any thoughts of the father behind and lives a life where he is not forced to be reminded of his father. He moves to another land and follows his lust for pleasure for this is the life he longed for. Many a sinner see life this very way. They want nothing to do with church and God. They live life as far away from the things of God for they see God as a foolish thought. They want stuff and more stuff and live to gain stuff in reckless living. They fail to remember that all blessing come from God. They fail to understand that all blessing could stop at any time. They think of enjoying as it is seen in short happy feeling when new stuff becomes their own. When the happiness is gone, the joy is gone and they need to have more stuff to be happy. They never think of God for to them God is dead, just as the younger son has done in the story.
14And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need.
The younger son ran out of money. The son needed more things to bring back his need of pleasure, but there was no way to get more things. The pleasure that came as he filled it with stuff, was now just a longing that could not be filled. On top of this severe famine came on the land he had gone to escape his father. This made it even harder to find the money needed to get more stuff. As the famine went on, the longing for pleasure changed into a desire to have what was needed to live. All the extra things now meant very little.
God does this very thing to the lawless sinner. It lets him go his own way. God gives him over to his own lust and sin. Sin always will lead to an empty feeling. Chasing pleasure will only take your money and still leave you wanting more. Notice just as in our story of the two sons, all blessings come from God. We can use the blessings and worship the blessing giver or worship the blessings and the blessings will use us. They will use control our thinking till we have nothing left.
God also brings into our life what I call “life check” moments. This we see in the story where God brought a famine. The younger son thought he needed more money to bring a happy feeling. But God did not give him more money because the son had a greater need. In fact God not only did not give the son more, he took more from him. That need that God wanted to show the son he needed was God.
God brought the famine as he also brings other hard times in our own life to make us think of what really matters. Once the son wanted the extra stuff and good time pleasure, but because of the famine God has shown the son he is not in control and blessing come from God, and the little extra stuff he found pleasure in are not that important when it comes to life itself. God brought him to the point where the other things in life did not matter. He was down and out and this was not just because he had no money. If the famine had not come, chances are the son would have kept trying to have fun and pleasure, and get it by working on the side. God blessed the son by bringing hard times in the famine that in the end will bring him to think of God.
what do you think so far?
Jarthur001 said:The way I would tell the story.
Part 1
"There was a man who had two sons.
This passage I feel is a look at the type of sinners we find in mankind. One has no regard for Christ and the other tries to work his way to heaven. Both stand against the cross of Christ. Christ tells this story to the Pharisees showing that they stand as guilty as the lawless sinner. Good works do not make one saved. That is the point of the story.
12And the younger of them said to his father, 'Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.' And he divided his property between them.
The younger son shows his selfish sin in wanting things and wanting them now. In this way the younger son is showing more love for the things of this world then love for the Father (God). In fact, he is saying he wished his father were dead. At the death of the father the son would get property coming to him. The son in saying he wanted his stuff now, was showing no respect for the father and wished the time would come he was no longer under the father. He wanted his father dead. Dead in that he did not want his father to control what was coming to him, but he (the son) wanted to control them. The younger sons actions is like the lawless of this world. They do not want to deal with God and even say he is dead. All they want is the pleasures of life.
I don't want to "attack" you but to be honest, I stopped reading right here. You are making far too many assumptions that are simply not in the story. I don't care for preaching/teaching where we add to scripture. I think scripture is sufficient on its own merits. No where does it say he wished his father dead. It says he asked for his inheritance.
I see the story is simply about being lost. You can stray from the Church and be lost or they're others just as lost who are there every Sunday singing in the Choir or serving on the deacon board. They can even be lost in the pulpit. And lost is lost.
You have to take this story in light of the others in this chapter. This chapter is about being lost. The lost sheep, the lost coin and the lost son(s). In each story, the item was lost (away from the owner) but was never out of the owners heart.
If this chapter is about our salvation it is showing how glad we should be that are salvation is in the hands of Jesus. If we stray he will leave the ninety and nine to find us. If we get lost he will leave no stone unturned until we are found. If we go he will patiently wait our return. Then in each case, there is joy when the lost is found... We need to do this more in the Church, have joy when the lost is found.
I think this chapter us summed up nicely in this one verse;
Lk 15:7 I say unto you, that likewise joy shall be in heaven over one sinner that repenteth, more than over ninety and nine just persons, which need no repentance.
Aren't you glad you needed to repent?
Jarthur001
Active Member
LeBuick said:
I agree.
I have added to the story. I was not going just by the text at all. I'm sorry if I mislead others.
I was telling the story as I see it and adding other things that COULD be added to the subject if you understand the story as I see it.
The bottom line is that both of these sons are sinners needing God. One knows it after falling into the pits, and the other does not because he is the "good" person. The rest is but a story on my part, as I said when I posted...."The way I would tell the story",,,not the text...but a story based on this text
This just added..........
I did see where you bolded the "wishing his father was died". If you mean that this is not in the text..I would disagree. I feel this can be seen if you think about the full culture of that day and what he was asking for.
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Marcia
Active Member
My pastor gave a really good message on this several weeks ago.
The older brother seems to think that his father should treat him well based on all he's done as the son and resents the forgiveness of the younger son who went off and squandered his inheritance.
The younger son comes back and is forgiven -- we must come to God knowing there is no other way - not our works (older son), not our status, nothing but just being totally in need of mercy.
So I think it's more about how we come to God rather than who is saved in the story. It's not about salvation but about how God forgives when we are at our lowest and see that we have nothing in ourselves to depend on. The older brother still thinks he has something to offer the father but the younger brother realizes he has nothing, and that is how he sees his father's mercy and compassion and forgiveness.
The older brother seems to think that his father should treat him well based on all he's done as the son and resents the forgiveness of the younger son who went off and squandered his inheritance.
The younger son comes back and is forgiven -- we must come to God knowing there is no other way - not our works (older son), not our status, nothing but just being totally in need of mercy.
So I think it's more about how we come to God rather than who is saved in the story. It's not about salvation but about how God forgives when we are at our lowest and see that we have nothing in ourselves to depend on. The older brother still thinks he has something to offer the father but the younger brother realizes he has nothing, and that is how he sees his father's mercy and compassion and forgiveness.
JustChristian
New Member
Jarthur001 said:
The father represents God. Both sons were in fellowship with God (saved) until the younger son rebelled and turned his back on Him. When he was in the far country he rejected everything his father stood for, sinned without repentance and finally lost everything and ate with the swine. This is about as low as you can get for a Jew. He had squandered his inheritance (salvation) and had nowhere to turn. Finally, he recognized that the only way he could regain a meaningful life was to repent before his father and ask him to take him back, not as a son but as a slave. His father received him back with great happiness and embraced him as his long lost son.
Jhn 15:5 I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
Jhn 15:6 If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned.
Jhn 15:7 If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you.
Jhn 15:8 Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; so shall ye be my disciples.
Jhn 15:9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love.
The prodigal son did not "abide in Christ" literally. He turned his back on Him and everything He stood for. He was in danger of being "cast into the fire" (of Hell). But he repented and came back into the fellowship of Christ (the vine). He didn't do this by making the long journey home (works). He did it by prostrating himself before his father and asking for forgiveness.
The older brother did what his father wanted him to do but we have to wonder about his motivation. Perhaps he was most interested in getting all of his father's inheritance when his father died. Then his wayward young brother shows and he's probably asking himself whether his brother will now receive things that are rightfully his. I agree that he represents someone like the Pharisees who are more legalistic than truly loving. Will the Pharisees be saved? I would say not. Similarly, I think the older son needs to rethink his attitude towards his brother and his father. His works will not save him. Only trusting in Jesus and showing love for his father and neighbors will save him.
canadyjd
Well-Known Member
I appreciate all the effort in analyzing the passage. Sometimes, I think we make it too complicated.
Jesus is responding to the Pharisees and scribes who did not believe He should associate with "sinners". We don't have to place the labels of "saved" or "unsaved" on either son. That wasn't the focus or the point of the parable.
The point is that God rejoices when sinners repent. God embraces sinners who repent. The Pharisees and scribes would not and did not. We don't have to go any further than that.
The application that comes to our churches is how do we respond when people are saved? Do we rejoice? What about people that don't look like us? What about people living in different economic conditions than we do?
If someone with tattos and piercings and multi-colored hair were saved, would you welcome them into the fellowship? What about a crack addicted prostitute? Would you rejoice that God had sent that person to your fellowship? A thief? A hardened criminal? A homerse*ual? A minority? A mixed race couple with 5 children and living on Social Security disability?
Do we really welcome and rejoice in the salvation of those people, just as God does? Or do we quietly hope that God will fill our congregations with 1000's of middle and upper-middle class professional families that will fund our programs and volunteer for our committees and complete our own "network"?
God rejoices when sinners (even those coming straight from a pig-pen) repent and so should we.
peace to youraying:
Jesus is responding to the Pharisees and scribes who did not believe He should associate with "sinners". We don't have to place the labels of "saved" or "unsaved" on either son. That wasn't the focus or the point of the parable.
The point is that God rejoices when sinners repent. God embraces sinners who repent. The Pharisees and scribes would not and did not. We don't have to go any further than that.
The application that comes to our churches is how do we respond when people are saved? Do we rejoice? What about people that don't look like us? What about people living in different economic conditions than we do?
If someone with tattos and piercings and multi-colored hair were saved, would you welcome them into the fellowship? What about a crack addicted prostitute? Would you rejoice that God had sent that person to your fellowship? A thief? A hardened criminal? A homerse*ual? A minority? A mixed race couple with 5 children and living on Social Security disability?
Do we really welcome and rejoice in the salvation of those people, just as God does? Or do we quietly hope that God will fill our congregations with 1000's of middle and upper-middle class professional families that will fund our programs and volunteer for our committees and complete our own "network"?
God rejoices when sinners (even those coming straight from a pig-pen) repent and so should we.
peace to you
raying:canadyjd said:
I agree mostly with what you wrote but will ask, a sinner repenting equates to???
Mt 4:17 From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
There is much more to repenting than just saying you did something wrong.
Pr 28:13 He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy.
I believe repenting is confessing and forsaking which is also turning from that which you are repenting. That is what makes heaven rejoice. In our case righteousness or turning from sin is only via the blood of Jesus. So for us to repent or to turn from sin is to accept Christ which is salvation.
Jarthur001 said:
If the father represents God then both sons are part of the fold. Perhaps some are misunderstanding when I say lost, I don't mean to loose salvation as I believe in eternal security. When the one sheep strays from the ninety and nine he is not loosing his salvation, he is straying from God or the fold. However, as Jesus hows us in each of these examples, God doesn't stray from us. We are still his even when lost or out of fellowship.
Jarthur001 said:
Perhaps, I understand how the goods will divide when the father dies. However, I don't see the son wishing his father dead. Instead I see the story as saying he asked for his inheritance while his father was alive.
It's like saying, "Dad, i know you're going to leave me a fortune in your will but why don't you give it to me now instead of making me wait". This is not the same as wishing his father dead.
Just getting back around to this - hope you don't mind this late entry in the discussion. I think all the views given in this thread are sound. I agree that the simple message is as Jesus said, "ther is rejoicing in heaven over one sinner that repents". But when you realize that this simple message is directed toward the Pharisees, you realize the implications. So I think the over-arching truth of this parable can be reduced to two parallel and reflective applications - one to individuals, the other to the Jewish/Gentile nations.
As JArthur so aply described, mankind can be conveniently divided amongst two types - the self-righteous (older brother), and the libertine (younger brother). I describe this phenomenon this way: When man is confronted with law, it represents a fork in the road of his life. One fork is a road called "morality", the other road is called "pleasure". Some take the road of morality, some take the road of pleasure. But this is the key - they both lead to Hell. We wrongly assume that those on the road of morality are saved, but Jesus said that they were two-fold children of Hell. They are doubly damned because they are doubly blind, with one layer of the blindfold being their inward love of sin, and the other layer of the blindfold being their denial of that love for sin. The pleasure-seeking libertine may be more destructive to himself and society, but at least he can more readily admit to possessing a love of sin.
So human morality is actually a spiritual trap that Jesus warns against. But this is not to be taken as a commendation of immorality, nor a lessening of the value of morality on human societies. Also, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the believer involves an impartation of the moral nature of God, leading to a virtuous ethic (though continualy resisted by the flesh). This is a key aspect of salvation that modern antinomians prefer to disregard.
And the parallel to that is the Jew/Gentile saga. I believe the Jews under the Mosaic Law serve as a picture of the moral yet lost man, and the Gentiles serve as a picture of the libertine. That's why I think the parables have a dispensational application (no, I'm not a dispensationalist, I don't mean it that way). When Jesus says "the Kingdom of Heaven is like...", he is telling the Jews about the coming age - the nature of the church and Gospel salvation. Think about Acts 15 and Romans 9-11. The Jews' protest would be "why will God save Gentiles, WE are chosen, and WE have the oracles of God" (Law, prophets, etc). They would say "It isn't fair for God to save Gentiles and condemn Jews". But Jesus would say to them, "the Gentiles repent, but sin remains in YOUR heart."
So this is my view. What do you think - nutty?
As JArthur so aply described, mankind can be conveniently divided amongst two types - the self-righteous (older brother), and the libertine (younger brother). I describe this phenomenon this way: When man is confronted with law, it represents a fork in the road of his life. One fork is a road called "morality", the other road is called "pleasure". Some take the road of morality, some take the road of pleasure. But this is the key - they both lead to Hell. We wrongly assume that those on the road of morality are saved, but Jesus said that they were two-fold children of Hell. They are doubly damned because they are doubly blind, with one layer of the blindfold being their inward love of sin, and the other layer of the blindfold being their denial of that love for sin. The pleasure-seeking libertine may be more destructive to himself and society, but at least he can more readily admit to possessing a love of sin.
So human morality is actually a spiritual trap that Jesus warns against. But this is not to be taken as a commendation of immorality, nor a lessening of the value of morality on human societies. Also, the indwelling of the Holy Spirit in the heart of the believer involves an impartation of the moral nature of God, leading to a virtuous ethic (though continualy resisted by the flesh). This is a key aspect of salvation that modern antinomians prefer to disregard.
And the parallel to that is the Jew/Gentile saga. I believe the Jews under the Mosaic Law serve as a picture of the moral yet lost man, and the Gentiles serve as a picture of the libertine. That's why I think the parables have a dispensational application (no, I'm not a dispensationalist, I don't mean it that way). When Jesus says "the Kingdom of Heaven is like...", he is telling the Jews about the coming age - the nature of the church and Gospel salvation. Think about Acts 15 and Romans 9-11. The Jews' protest would be "why will God save Gentiles, WE are chosen, and WE have the oracles of God" (Law, prophets, etc). They would say "It isn't fair for God to save Gentiles and condemn Jews". But Jesus would say to them, "the Gentiles repent, but sin remains in YOUR heart."
So this is my view. What do you think - nutty?
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JustChristian
New Member
canadyjd said:I appreciate all the effort in analyzing the passage. Sometimes, I think we make it too complicated.
Jesus is responding to the Pharisees and scribes who did not believe He should associate with "sinners". We don't have to place the labels of "saved" or "unsaved" on either son. That wasn't the focus or the point of the parable.
The point is that God rejoices when sinners repent. God embraces sinners who repent. The Pharisees and scribes would not and did not. We don't have to go any further than that.
The application that comes to our churches is how do we respond when people are saved? Do we rejoice? What about people that don't look like us? What about people living in different economic conditions than we do?
If someone with tattos and piercings and multi-colored hair were saved, would you welcome them into the fellowship? What about a crack addicted prostitute? Would you rejoice that God had sent that person to your fellowship? A thief? A hardened criminal? A homerse*ual? A minority? A mixed race couple with 5 children and living on Social Security disability?
Do we really welcome and rejoice in the salvation of those people, just as God does? Or do we quietly hope that God will fill our congregations with 1000's of middle and upper-middle class professional families that will fund our programs and volunteer for our committees and complete our own "network"?
God rejoices when sinners (even those coming straight from a pig-pen) repent and so should we.
peace to you
But this situation is clearly different. The younger son was in fellowship with his father (God) and then chose to reject everything he stood for and left home. He repented and came back. The first part is an important part of the parable.
JustChristian
New Member
LeBuick said:
What would straying from the fold mean if he had never come back?
BaptistBeliever said:
I guess I don't see it that way. I see it as WHEN he would come back as opposed to IF he would come back. It was the intent of the story from our savior. Again, this chapter is about lost, there was the lost sheep, the lost coin and the lost son. Each were found or returned.
Gold Dragon
Well-Known Member
J.D. said:
I agree that the Jew-Gentile angle is strongly hinted at in this parable. However I think it is a more general contrast of the lawful and righteous versus lawless sinners. Pharisees vs prostitutes, tax collectors in Jesus' day. Modern equivalents might be Sunday School teachers vs homosexuals.
God throws a big party in heaven when a long lost sinner comes home. And the obedient ones may feel resentment and lack of understanding. I see a lot of parallels of the older brother's reaction to the parable of the workers (Matt 20:1-16) where the workers who worked the full day grumble because they are paid the same as the ones who only work an hour.
The older brother is the child of God who mistakenly believes his righteousness earns him something. I think he is a believer throughout the story.
The younger brother is the child of God who receives and embraces grace because his unrighteousness deserves otherwise. I think he is an unbeliever who becomes a believer.
Gold Dragon said:
Possibly, but I think the older brother represents the Phrarisees. Look at who the audience was. A parable is a short story meant to convey truth by bringing about a shocking revelation. The people that needed to hear this truth were the Pharisees, who were whining about how Jesus was hanging out with sinners.