"The time is at hand" OUR WEPON, NOT SCOFFERS!

Yes, in my view you are at least partially correct grasshopper, but even to those of us who do live within the time stream the Word of God tells us:

KJV 2 Peter 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.​

Not only that but Jesus hinted at the current delay of His return​

Luke 12
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
49 I am come to send fire on the earth; and what will I, if it be already kindled?​

So in the schema of God and His relationship with man in one sense of the Scriptures He has only been gone a couple of days.​

HankD​

 

Yes, to God time is meaningless (Ps.90:1-4), but to us it has great meaning. I refuse to believe God gave time indicators to his creation through His inspired Word that would be meaningless and actually misleading to us.

That is a servant, not Jesus.

Luk 12:54 And he said also to the people, When ye see a cloud rise out of the west, straightway ye say, There cometh a shower; and so it is.
Luk 12:55 And when ye see the south wind blow, ye say, There will be heat; and it cometh to pass.
Luk 12:56 Ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky and of the earth; but how is it that ye do not discern this time?



Heb 10:37 For yet a little while, and he that shall come will come, and will not tarry.

G5549
χρονίζω
chronizō
Thayer Definition:
1) to linger, delay, tarry

Are you looking forward to that 1 day Millinial Kingdom? Or would that be a (1000years)(365)(1000) Millinial Kingdom? Or did God really mean 1000 years in that instance?

2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, let not this one thing be hidden from you, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. ​

 

Peter is using 1000 years in a relative sense related to the way God keeps His promises sometimes causing us to question why he is taking so long. That is clear from the context, while in Revelation the definite article is used "the thousand years" at least twice indicating that it is a specific 1000 years and not used in a relative sense.

You and I are His servant-sons grasshopper and IMO He had His 21st century (or whatever year) servant-sons in mind as well when He gave this parable concerning His delay to His eyewitness servants.

My oipinion of course.

HankD

 

But why then is "nigh" relative?

Rev 1:3 Happy is he who is reading, and those hearing, the words of the prophecy, and keeping the things written in it--for the time is nigh!

It seems we are to take things "literally" unless they contradict a futurist eschatology, then we are to filter time-statments through 2 Peter 3 and say they have a relative meaning.

Futurism has no problem saying "nigh" means "nigh" in this verse:

Mat 24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:

Or this verse:

Luk 21:20 And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

But when we get to Revelation, all of the sudden it is filtered through 2 Peter 3. I don't understand why other than to hold on to a futuristic eschatology.

 

Don’t worry, I haven’t been responding to your mindless ramblings. I’ve been discussing with Hank.

When you said this:

1[ God’s written Word is preserved inherently in The King James version [KJV].

I lost interest in anything you had to say. I knew then what I was dealing with. And you call preterism a cult.:laugh:

 

You are correct grasshopper in that we all pick and choose when and where to give particular words the particular nuance that suits our fancy. Hopefully that "fancy" comes out of a conviction which has come about as the result of a study of the Scripture.

Even the men who translated the KJV said that there were things "not so clear" in the Scripture (this is for our KJVO friend(s)).

But, I suspect that both you and I put (actually, I did) a lot of study into the particular point of views which we respectively hold (I have been saved and studing over 40 years).

So, while the "futurist" view has some difficulties so does any other and the "futurist" view is my present conviction.

IMO, There are too many words and phases in Matthew 24 that have to be "spiritualized" for those happenings in Matthew 24 to have happened by the time of the Destruction of the Temple.

That is not to say I have closed my mind to revisiting other views or looking into new views (with the Word of God as the final authority).

So yes "nigh" means "near" in a generic sense for any believer reading that passage in the Revelation in any century, but "the" 1000 years is a specific 1000 years to come in the future when Christ returns bodily to earth (in my estimation).


HankD

 

I don’t think you have to “spiritualize” anything. Just understand how the language is used.

Here the destruction of Jerusalem and the end of the Mosaic Economy are being described:

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

Jesus uses almost the exact terminology Isaiah used in describing the fall of Babylon in 586BC:

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Stars falling, the sun being darkened and other cosmic disturbances are commonly used in the OT to describe the fall of nation and empires. Why should we seek a different interpretation in this case? Jesus was familiar with the words of Isaiah and the Jews to whom He was speaking were also familiar with it. I’m sure they had a clear understanding of what Jesus meant.

Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Once again terminology found in the OT:

Isa 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it.

Jehovah riding on the clouds was nothing new to the Hebrew mind.

Exo 19:9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the LORD.

Exo 34:5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.

Num 11:25 And the LORD came down in a cloud, and spake unto him, and took of the spirit that was upon him, and gave it unto the seventy elders: and it came to pass, that, when the spirit rested upon them, they prophesied, and did not cease.

It was for this reason Caiaphas charged Jesus with blasphemy. Jesus claimed to come in the clouds, something that only Jehovah God did:

Mat 26:64 Jesus saith unto him, Thou hast said: nevertheless I say unto you, Hereafter shall ye see the Son of man sitting on the right hand of power, and coming in the clouds of heaven.
Mat 26:65 Then the high priest rent his clothes, saying, He hath spoken blasphemy; what further need have we of witnesses? behold, now ye have heard his blasphemy.

John Gill understood this:

and coming in, the clouds of heaven. So Christ's coming to take vengeance on the Jewish nation, as it is often called the coming of the son of man, is described in this manner, Mat_24:27.

So I don’t think you have to spiritualize the text, now “writing the Law on ones heart”, I hope that is a spiritual interpretation.

Hank, I’ll leave you with comment by CH Spurgeon who I’m sure you don’t consider a heretic or cultist:laugh: :

(On Matthew 24:32-33)
"Our Lord here evidently returns to often made use of its illuminated the subject of the destruction of Jerusalem, and in these words gives his apostles warning concerning the signs of the times. He had recently used the barren fig tree as an object-lesson; he now bids his disciples "learn a parable of the fig tree" and all the trees (Luke 21:31). God’s great book of nature is full of illustrations for those who have eyes to perceive them; and the Lord Jesus, the great Creator, often made use of its illuminated pages in conveying instruction to the minds of his hearers. On this occasion, he used a simple simile from the parable of the fig-tree: "When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh." They could not mistake so plain a token of the near return of summer; and Jesus would have them read quite as quickly the signs that were to herald the coming judgment on Jerusalem: "So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors." The Revised Version has the words, "Know ye that he is nigh," the Son of man, the King. His own nation rejected him when he came in mercy; so his next coming would be a time of terrible judgment and retribution to his guilty capital. Oh, that Jews and Gentiles today were wise enough to learn the lesson of that fiery trial, and to seek his face, those wrath they cannot bear!"

 

Thank you grasshopper for your well thought out answer.

Perhaps Isaiah was looking beyond the captivities and carrying away of Israel-Judah. IMO, there are abundant passages in the prophets concerning the Day of the Lord which make more sense to me by relating them to a far reaching prophecy than just focusing upon the Assyrian-Babylonian captivities.

Also, as much as I admire Spurgeon, he was human just as we and subject to views which perhaps were not quite on the mark and I admit such may be my own situation.

In any case, I'm not convinced of your view of Matthew 24 concerning figures of speech etc, especially in light of other OT prophets and the Day of the Lord prophecies.

To sum up again, we all pick and choose in the choice between literal and spiritual interpretation.

HankD

 

If so, then he left it up to each ones imagination. Here is the context:

Isa 13:1 The burden of Babylon, which Isaiah the son of Amoz did see.

Clearly a judgment on Babylon.

Isa 13:17 Behold, I will stir up the Medes against them, which shall not regard silver; and as for gold, they shall not delight in it.

Again, a clear reference to whom God would use to destroy the Babylonians. The Medes. This was what happened in 586 BC. It is described as such:

Isa 13:10 For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine.

Now if one wishes to put this “day of the Lord” in our future, then it is they who must “spiritualize.” They must give the “spiritual” meaning of who Babylon and the Medes are.

There were many “days of the Lords” found in the OT and referred top different events.

David Green writes this:

In the Scriptures, a "day of the Lord" is a time in which God judges a people, punishing the wicked and rewarding the righteous. It is the consummation of an historical time of crisis, a time of wrath, destruction, deliverance and inheritance. There were many such days in the Old Testament: See Joel 1:15; 2:1,11; Isa. 2:12; 13:6,9; Jer. 46:10; Eze. 13:5; 30:3; Oba. 1:15; Zeph. 1:7,14. All of those "days" were fulfilled when God sent one nation against another nation, to work out His terrible judgments.

One example:

Eze 30:3 For the day is near, even the day of the LORD is near, a cloudy day; it shall be the time of the heathen. ...........
Eze 30:9 In that day shall messengers go forth from me in ships to make the careless Ethiopians afraid, and great pain shall come upon them, as in the day of Egypt: for, lo, it cometh.
Eze 30:10 Thus saith the Lord GOD; I will also make the multitude of Egypt to cease by the hand of Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon.

The Destruction of Jerusalem was a “day of the Lord” and prophesized by Malachi:

Mal 4:1 For, behold, the day cometh, that shall burn as an oven; and all the proud, yea, and all that do wickedly, shall be stubble: and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the LORD of hosts, that it shall leave them neither root nor branch.

He gives us a hint as to when it would occur:

Mal 4:5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
Mal 4:6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

John the Baptist fulfills verse 5:

Mat 17:10 And his disciples asked him, saying, Why then say the scribes that Elijah must first come?
Mat 17:11 And he answered and said, Elijah indeed cometh, and shall restore all things:
Mat 17:12 but I say into you, that Elijah is come already, and they knew him not, but did unto him whatsoever they would. Even so shall the Son of man also suffer of them.
Mat 17:13 Then understood the disciples that he spake unto them of John the Baptist.

And verse 6:

Luk 1:16 And many of the children of Israel shall he turn to the Lord their God.
Luk 1:17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

So I would argue why would Matt 24:29 be interpreted in a different manner than Isaiah 13:10? Especially considering what Jesus had to say in the preceding chapter:

Mat 23:34 Wherefore, behold, I send unto you prophets, and wise men, and scribes: and some of them ye shall kill and crucify; and some of them shall ye scourge in your synagogues, and persecute them from city to city:
Mat 23:35 That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar.
Mat 23:36 Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation.

I would counter, why you would interpret any other way in light of other OT prophets and Day of the Lord prophecies. (Eze. 32:7-8)

But it would seem that the futurist takes the easiest and most plain concepts (time statements) and “spiritualizes” them while the preterist accepts the plainest as literal and uses those as the context for the interpreting of the more difficult.

 

You have proven my point brother grasshopper.

When the time is right your points may well be reconsidered.

God bless you and yours.

HankD

 

Always enjoyable Hank.:thumbs: :jesus: