Speaking of moronic, the Mormon doctrine, which is the same as yours, got the doctrine from Moroni. Cool!
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The Time is Near - He who is Righteous will be Righteous still
- Thread starter BobRyan
- Start date
Speaking of moronic, the Mormon doctrine, which is the same as yours, got the doctrine from Moroni. Cool!
I would love to watch you debate on a Mormon board, they would be lovin you!
"Bring myself to admit" ?? I learned that about 15 years ago brother :thumbsup:
The truth is so near, if it were a snake it would bite you! Let me try to make it as simple for the student as possible....
Keeping the commandments of Jesus Christ/God is an ATTRIBUTE of those who are born-again, having the law written on their heart.
Keeping the commandments of God DOES NOT JUSTIFY the sinner.
Ye who would be JUSTIFIED by Keeping the Commandments of God (Which would be our residents BobRyan and E7) are Fallen from Grace (Galatians 5)
Anyone desiring to Keep the Commandments of God must be JUSTIFIED by GRACE through FAITH in Jesus Christ......ALONE!! Born-Again!
ALL Ten Commandments of God are kept by the born-again children of God, held dearly in the heart. As the flesh sins against any one of these commandments of God, God gives more Grace, more chastisement, more conviction to repent, more forgiveness, applied by the blood of Jesus Christ for those whom are His, having been sealed by the Holy Spirit to the uttermost!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Now for a detour from the "lets talk about Mormons and accuse so-and-so" strategy to actually going to the topic of the thread.
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On the Calvinism vs Arminianism board section - one of our "non cal" friends made this case for a non-Cal support of OSAS - (no free will) after one is saved - but free will before being saved.
Rev 22 NASB
10 And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
11 Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”
Rev 22 KJV
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Notice that this speaks of a future time when the wicked will no longer be converted to the Gospel and when the righteous will no longer be subject to backsliding into wickedness and rebellion against God and the loss of salvation.
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Am I right to note that after this many pages of discussion - no one has yet to deal with Rev 22 and find a way for OSAS to survive it?
in Christ,
Bob
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On the Calvinism vs Arminianism board section - one of our "non cal" friends made this case for a non-Cal support of OSAS - (no free will) after one is saved - but free will before being saved.
Rev 22 NASB
10 And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
11 Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”
Rev 22 KJV
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Notice that this speaks of a future time when the wicked will no longer be converted to the Gospel and when the righteous will no longer be subject to backsliding into wickedness and rebellion against God and the loss of salvation.
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Am I right to note that after this many pages of discussion - no one has yet to deal with Rev 22 and find a way for OSAS to survive it?
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
You post that as if you and I had some mythical exchange where my position was "no it is not".
I find that curious.
The lost sinner needs to be justified - and so it is by grace through faith.
Was the lost sinner supposed to turn in to saint in conduct first and then ask to be born-again?
Did that conversation ever happen???
"Making stuff up" as if that helps your argument or makes it compelling only works with a low-information reader. You knew that right?
in Christ,
Bob
I have answered you several times that a person who trusts Christ is baptized into his body. We are joined to his Spirit (1 Cor 6:17), we are partakers of the divine nature, and that we are born of God and cannot fall away in unbelief because our seed (the Holy Spirit) remains in us (1 Jhn 3:9)
Now you say that no one has answered you? I have answered you several times.
But you are correct, Rev 22 shows that no change will take place after that time.
And I am the one who originally pointed this scripture out to you.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
You have posted your views - but you do not show how it survives the details in Rev 22:10-11.
And certainly I myself would agree that the saints are filled with the Holy Spirit and walk according to the Spirit - not according to the flesh.
1John 3 insists that "sin is transgression of the law" vs 4 and that those born of God "do not sin". (Which applies to the new born-again nature according to John)
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On the Calvinism vs Arminianism board section - one of our "non cal" friends made this case for a non-Cal support of OSAS - (no free will) after one is saved - but free will before being saved.
Rev 22 NASB
10 And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
11 Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”
Rev 22 KJV
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Notice that this speaks of a future time when the wicked will no longer be converted to the Gospel and when the righteous will no longer be subject to backsliding into wickedness and rebellion against God and the loss of salvation.
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But you are correct, Rev 22 shows that no change will take place after that time.
And I am the one who originally pointed this scripture out to you.
Indeed you are and it is you that I reference in the OP -
However the details in Rev 22 point to a change that goes both ways.
A change in the lost - they do not cross over to be saved any longer.
A change in the saved - they do not cross over to be lost any longer.
And you first used Rev 22:10-11 to point to the case of the saved and say "see" the saved do not become lost.
However you missed the detail that this is a "change' of state that happens in the future and affects both the saved and the lost.
And of course that means that now "Before that change" the lost DO cross over and become saved and the saved DO cross over and become lost.
Hence the problem of "Forgiveness revoked' that we see in Matt 18 and Ezek 18 and the issue of those who "stand only by their faith" told in Romans 11 "to fear".
My "has not been addressed" comment was specifically about the details in Rev 22:10-11 stating that the condition is a "change" that will come in the future - that does not exist today by virtue of the fact that we can see that the lost are still crossing over to become saved. That alone tells us this condition has not been reached. Which means OSAS does not yet exist.
in Christ,
Bob
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Rev 22 does not say that a born again person can lose salvation, you are assuming that. What it does say is that a person who perishes lost will never have the opportunity to be saved again.
No, it is more than that, we are literally "fused" to the Holy Spirit, that is why I showed you 1 Cor 6:17. The person who is joined unto the Lord is ONE SPIRIT.
It is not unlike physical birth, you are comprised of both your mother and your father, yet you are a new creation, you are an individual. You are NOT your parents.
Likewise, when a person is saved, their natural spirit is cleansed of sin and joined to the Holy Spirit to become ONE SPIRIT. We are a new creation. We partake in the divine nature. We are not God, but we share somewhat of his nature. This is why we cannot fall away in unbelief, because the Holy Spirit remains in us and cannot sin (1 Jhn 3:9).
Well, it cannot be saying we do not sin at all, because all Christians sin. That said, we are still in "corruptible" bodies. That doesn't mean we can lose salvation, but we must battle the flesh daily, and sometimes the flesh wins. Nevertheless, the Holy Spirit NEVER leaves the believer under any circumstance, and so no believer can fall away in unbelief.
Heb 13:5 Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee.
Now, after the resurrection we will have "incorruptible" bodies and I believe we will not be tempted by ungodly lusts as we are now.
The lost on the other hand will perpetually have a "corruptible" nature and will be filthy forever. This is what Rev. 22 is saying.
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I disagree, you are reading that into scripture. What it is saying is that the lost will never have a chance to be saved again. It is also saying the saved will never be lost, but that does not mean we are not saved now.
In fact, the scriptures say we are the sons of God NOW. Now, if a person could lose salvation, it would be presumptuous to say such a thing, as no one would truly know if they are a son of God until the day they die.
1 Jhn 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
We are not waiting and hoping to be the sons of God in the future, if you have trusted Jesus you are a son of God NOW. You have been SEALED unto the day of redemption.
Eph 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
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Rev 22 does tell us the unsaved will forever remain lost and filthy. It also tells us the saved will never be lost.
However, that does not mean our salvation is not secure now, you are reading that into scripture. There are MANY scriptures that say and prove we are saved now and can never lose our salvation.
As for scripture like Romans 11, these Jews were NEVER saved. It is not saying they were once saved and then cut off.
God does not intend for anyone to be lost. Everyone's name is in the book of life to begin with. We sing a hymn, "There's a new name written down in glory!", but that hymn is error. You never read of anyone's name being added to the book of life, but you do read of people having their name blotted out of the book of life. Your name had to first be in there to be blotted out.
People are not born lost, we are not born separated from God. But when men willingly and knowingly choose to sin, this is when they become lost. And ALL men who reach the age of accountability will sin and become lost.
I believe God in his foreknowledge knows who will trust in Christ before they are born, and these persons' names will never be blotted out. But those who God knows will sin and never trust Jesus will be cut off and blotted out.
Nevertheless, if they choose to believe (because we all believe AFTER we become lost) they can be graffed back in.
Now, my views are a little different from most, but this is how I understand it.
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Here is what E7 has posted and reiterated many times over and I have never seen you disagree with him as of yet....
Two questions for you and maybe the answers will clear up your position;
1) In your answer as to the justification you spoke of above (by grace through faith) is this justification given as a free gift regardless of any works of obedience to the law, either prior to it being given, or after it having been given?
2) Are you in agreement with E7's quote above concerning salvation, which is works of obedience are necessary for salvation after grace (Moroni doctrine) or is his pov a false teaching of Scripture?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
:laugh:
:laugh:
There is an almost endless stream of posts where DHK says something that I do not agree with and "I have yet to see you disagree with him" on every one of those lines of argument.
I have not read every one of E7's posts to you and I have not been asked by E7 to place a "papal imprimature" over them - as we both know I am sure. You are making stuff up as you go along to defend your actions. Is that the Bible way?
Please be serious.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Your version of Moroni doctrine is making stuff up as Joseph Smith did - to defend your string of accusations. Why keep resorting to "making stuff up" as you go? - It did not work that well for Joseph Smith in the end.
You have "salvation after grace" phrases not found in scripture at all - as you "invent" your doctrine - on the fly. Recall that your initial question was about how the lost person is to be justified. And now you seem to think that the best question is "How is the justified person to be justified" but knowing full well that your point makes no sense when stated so directly you ask "how to be saved after grace" -- as odd as that sounds.
Why not just stick with the actual Bible???
Romans 2 and James 2 comes to mind for those already born again contrasted to those who are not -- and more Bible that you may hope to be at war with or hopefully to accept.
I would hope that the "mere quote" of the scripture in large sections does not give rise to your strong objection as it does with others.
Romans 2
4 Or do you think lightly of the riches of His kindness and tolerance and patience, not knowing that the kindness of God leads you to repentance? 5 But because of your stubbornness and unrepentant heart you are storing up wrath for yourself in the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God, 6 who will render to each person according to his deeds:
7 to those who by perseverance in doing good seek for glory and honor and immortality, eternal life;
8 but to those who are selfishly ambitious and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, wrath and indignation.
9 There will be tribulation and distress for every soul of man who does evil, of the Jew first and also of the Greek,
10 but glory and honor and peace to everyone who does good, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.
11 For there is no partiality with God. 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; 13 for it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified.
14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves,
15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them,
16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.
26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
James 2
18 But someone may well say, “You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works.” 19 You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. 20 But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? 22 You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected; 23 and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, “And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness,” and he was called the friend of God. 24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone. 25 In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? 26 For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.
Now remember no twisting scripture or my post. Now let the discussion begin.:jesus:
in Christ,
Bob
Deflection is not the answer. I gave you the post in question for consideration.
Do you agree? Simple question, simple answer - "yes" or "no" will suffice.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by BobRyan
You have posted your views - but you do not show how it survives the details in Rev 22:10-11.
Winman said:
1. There is no such thing as a lost person that perishes and then is saved anyway - that time has been here since Adam. I suspect we both agree on that point. That is not some future change as if it were not already in place since Adam.
"It is appointed unto man once to die and then comes the judgment" Heb 9 - - I think we both already agree on this point - so I am not sure why you are pointing to this as a something that will one day in the future exist.
2. You brought up Rev 22:10-11 as a text promoting OSAS - that the saved person cannot be lost. If Rev 22 makes no reference to the subject of the saved being lost (as in stating that in the future the saved will not lose salvation) then claiming it for the future or for the present would not be an argument for OSAS since now you are claiming it does not speak at all to the subject of the saved losing salvation.
ie. You can't have it both ways. Using it to say that the saved cannot lose salvation, but then when pointing out that it is a future condition - switching back to "this says nothing about the subject of the saved losing salvation".
However as we noted in the text this is a "future condition" that the text is pointing to - not the current state. And it says nothing at all about 'at some future point in time when a lost person perishes they will no longer be able to switch over and become a saved person"
Rev 22 NASB
10 And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
11 Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”
Rev 22 KJV
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
Notice that this speaks of a future time when the wicked will no longer be converted to the Gospel and when the righteous will no longer be subject to backsliding into wickedness and rebellion against God and the loss of salvation.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I believe Romans 2 and James 2 - are true.
Do you? A simple yes or no will suffice.
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
You said --
Originally Posted by steaver
Two questions for you and maybe the answers will clear up your position;
1) In your answer as to the justification you spoke of above (by grace through faith) is this justification given as a free gift regardless of any works of obedience to the law, either prior to it being given, or after it having been given?
2) Are you in agreement with E7's quote above concerning salvation, which is works of obedience are necessary for salvation after grace (Moroni doctrine) .
The "salvation after grace" phrase is yours - unless you find someone else using it.
in Christ,
Bob
"Yes" - see how easy that is to do? Try it now with my question...:thumbsup:
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
BobRyan said:
As pointed out above - I cannot attribute to you - every statement that DHK makes -- and I have yet to do that.
The point remains - stick with the details.
I have stated my affirmation of Romans 2 and James 2.
If you want to know my opinion of E7 on Romans 2 and James 2 - I suspect he would not want to be at war with those texts but would choose to agree with them.
How about you?
Let each person speak for themselves.
in Christ,
Bob
I think you are so accustom to taking Scripture out of context that it just comes naturally even with another person's words. Do you see the part in my question where the "salvation after grace" is taken from E7's quote? Now maybe you can just answer the question as presented in context and we can move forward?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
So do you agree with Romans 2 and James 2 - a simple yes or no will do.
1. I am not aware of your asking me to agree or differ with some scripture. Did you have one in mind to ask about??
2. Since you "claim" you are in full agreement with Romans 2 and James 2 as quoted above - and you have been in discussion with E7 on these points - can you explain just where your acceptance of Romans 2 and James 2 is at odds with E7's acceptance of these texts?
That might help us with your rant about "Mormon! Mormon!" .
At least it might clear a few things up for me in that regard to your seemingly wild baseless accusations against me.
In fact why not detail just where your full acceptance of Romans 2 and James 2 differs with mine to the point of slinging the "Mormon! Mormon!" charge against me as well?
in Christ,
Bob
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