The Time is Near - He who is Righteous will be Righteous still

[OldRegular]

Were the Romans terrified by Paul's teaching in Rom 6:15-23?
Nah ... t'was like how Christians today view their sin.

But, I'm curious ... can you "see" in Rom 6:15-23 ...
how Paul is warning them to STOP being slaves of sin, or else!
(He speaks of eternal death 3 times in 9 verses.)
.

Paul says nothing that indicates that those who are once redeemed by God can lose their salvation. You might read further in Romans 7 to understand the struggle of the redeemed against sin, a struggle that apparently Paul also experienced!

You can cherry pick and take Scripture out of context to prove almost anything. But the fact is that once God saves a person He saves them eternally. Consider what God through the Apostle Paul tells us in the following:

Romans 8:28-39
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32. He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
34. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36. As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The entire passage is contrary to the devilish belief that God cannot keep those who are His; but note specifically that those God Called and Justified He also Glorified.{Verses 29, 30} So away with your devilish belief that the Satan overcomes the will of God!

 

[Yeshua1]

Were the Romans terrified by Paul's teaching in Rom 6:15-23?
Nah ... t'was like how Christians today view their sin.

But, I'm curious ... can you "see" in Rom 6:15-23 ...
how Paul is warning them to STOP being slaves of sin, or else!
(He speaks of eternal death 3 times in 9 verses.)
.

Just shows us that whoever we submit ourselves to will be the master over us, as either submit to the Spriit/Jesus, or else to the lusts.desires of what the flesh wants to do!

Thankfully, we NOW have the power and means to resist the flesh and submit to God!

 

[BobRyan]

Paul says nothing that indicates that those who are once redeemed by God can lose their salvation.

Until you take a close look at Romans 11.


[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them.

15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”


20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
.

===================

The OSAS argument dies here at several points.

1. It dies if the argument tries to ignore "But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles."

2. it dies in that Paul's "Graft them in again" is specific to " move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them"
3. And it dies in that the gentiles that ARE saved are being grafted in WITH THEM - with the "SOME" of the Jews that are saved. " you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them"

4. And of course it dies in that the Gentile who 'stand by your faith" is being "Warned" about being cast into the lost position of those Jews who even OSAS people admit are lost.

"the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."

==============

 

[saturneptune]

I have long believed that the term "Once Saved, Always Saved", though true, is a poor way to state the Biblical truth that those God redeems, justifies, and adopts as children He will keep in His care for eternity. The doctrine that God is unable to keep that which He promised is a pathetic, devilish doctrine.

Yes, straight from the pits of hell. Mr. Ryan has nothing from Scripture to back up his works by salvation.

 

[BobRyan]

I have long believed that the term "Once Saved, Always Saved", though true, is a poor way to state the Biblical truth that those God redeems, justifies, and adopts as children He will keep in His care for eternity. The doctrine that God is unable to keep that which He promised is a pathetic, devilish doctrine.

God himself warns us about the problem of "Full forgiveness revoked" in Matt 18.

God Himself warns the saints about the problem of being "Severed FROM Christ" and "Fallen FROM Grace" in Gal 5:4.

God Himself warns "you who stand by your faith" about the very real problem of being lost in Romans 11 as I noted in my prior post.

What is unthinkable is that the warnings given by God in His own word should be taken lightly as if "naaahhh that can never happen" is the right solution.

At the time of the flood - Noah gave a certain warning and many of his listeners thought it could never happen as described.

I think that in these examples - God is telling it like it really is.

And yet as one poster recently stated - taking these clear warnings by God Himself as if they were true and valid is "straight from the pit". How sad.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[saturneptune]

God himself warns us about the problem of "Full forgiveness revoked" in Matt 18.

God Himself warns the saints about the problem of being "Severed FROM Christ" and "Fallen FROM Grace" in Gal 5:4.

God Himself warns "you who stand by your faith" about the very real problem of being lost in Romans 11 as I noted in my prior post.

What is unthinkable is that the warnings given by God in His own word should be taken lightly as if "naaahhh that can never happen" is the right solution.

At the time of the flood - Noah gave a certain warning and many of his listeners thought it could never happen as described.

I think that in these examples - God is telling it like it really is.

And yet as one poster recently stated - taking these clear warnings by God Himself as if they were true and valid is "straight from the pit". How sad.

in Christ,

Bob

What is sad is that before you misinterpret Scripture, you have already decided how God operates and make your verses match your secular preconceived ideas. It just does not sink in. God is sovereign and in charge. You remind me of the Abraham's promise from God to make a great nation. Knowing that Sari was old and unable to conceive, Abraham thought he would help God along and take matters into his own hands and find a woman that could conceive. I am really glad Abraham had the intelligence to fulfill the Lord's plan. God had never figured out the human body is just not capable of certain things.

And since God is not able to keep his promise of making us more like Jesus each day, it behooves us to give Him a little help and strictly obey our own man made laws under our own power. Surely if we fail, we will slip in and out of salvation several times, but hey, Russian roulette is a dangerous game, huh.

 

[OldRegular]

God himself warns us about the problem of "Full forgiveness revoked" in Matt 18.

God Himself warns the saints about the problem of being "Severed FROM Christ" and "Fallen FROM Grace" in Gal 5:4.

God Himself warns "you who stand by your faith" about the very real problem of being lost in Romans 11 as I noted in my prior post.

What is unthinkable is that the warnings given by God in His own word should be taken lightly as if "naaahhh that can never happen" is the right solution.

At the time of the flood - Noah gave a certain warning and many of his listeners thought it could never happen as described.

I think that in these examples - God is telling it like it really is.

And yet as one poster recently stated - taking these clear warnings by God Himself as if they were true and valid is "straight from the pit". How sad.

in Christ,

Bob

Your problem is that you are misinterpreting Scripture!

I will repeat for your edification Scripture from a most recent post!

You can cherry pick and take Scripture out of context to prove almost anything. But the fact is that once God saves a person He saves them eternally. Consider what God through the Apostle Paul tells us in the following:

Romans 8:28-39
28. And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
29. For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
30. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.
31. What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?
32. He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
33. Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God’s elect? It is God that justifieth.
34. Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.
35. Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?
36. As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.
37. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.
38. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39. Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

The entire passage is contrary to the devilish belief that God cannot keep those who are His; but note specifically that those God Called and Justified He also Glorified.{Verses 29, 30} So away with your devilish belief that the Satan overcomes the will of God!

Now tell me and others how one that God has glorified can lose their salvation. You might also consider the following promise of God to keep those who are His.

John 10:27-30 {NASB}
27. “My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
28. and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.
29. “My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand.
30. “I and the Father are one.”

Now you tell me and others: Is God lying here or is Satan able to take that which belongs to God. I think not! NO! NO! I know Satan cannot.

 

[Yeshua1]

God himself warns us about the problem of "Full forgiveness revoked" in Matt 18.

God Himself warns the saints about the problem of being "Severed FROM Christ" and "Fallen FROM Grace" in Gal 5:4.

God Himself warns "you who stand by your faith" about the very real problem of being lost in Romans 11 as I noted in my prior post.

What is unthinkable is that the warnings given by God in His own word should be taken lightly as if "naaahhh that can never happen" is the right solution.

At the time of the flood - Noah gave a certain warning and many of his listeners thought it could never happen as described.

I think that in these examples - God is telling it like it really is.

And yet as one poster recently stated - taking these clear warnings by God Himself as if they were true and valid is "straight from the pit". How sad.

in Christ,

Bob

The Jews mentioned in Romans 11 that God cut off were unbelievers, NEVER trusted in jesus as their Messiah!

You need to stop using that passage!

 

[Winman]

God himself warns us about the problem of "Full forgiveness revoked" in Matt 18.

God Himself warns the saints about the problem of being "Severed FROM Christ" and "Fallen FROM Grace" in Gal 5:4.

God Himself warns "you who stand by your faith" about the very real problem of being lost in Romans 11 as I noted in my prior post.

What is unthinkable is that the warnings given by God in His own word should be taken lightly as if "naaahhh that can never happen" is the right solution.

At the time of the flood - Noah gave a certain warning and many of his listeners thought it could never happen as described.

I think that in these examples - God is telling it like it really is.

And yet as one poster recently stated - taking these clear warnings by God Himself as if they were true and valid is "straight from the pit". How sad.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, I have to ask you a question, just what is it that you seem to think everybody is doing that is going to cost them their salvation? I ask that because that is absolutely what you seem to always be implying.

What are you warning everyone against?

Do you think everyone here does not forgive others?

Do you think there is someone here who no longer believes in Christ?

What exactly are you trying to imply will cost people their salvation?

 

[saturneptune]

Bob, I have to ask you a question, just what is it that you seem to think everybody is doing that is going to cost them their salvation? I ask that because that is absolutely what you seem to always be implying.

What are you warning everyone against?

Do you think everyone here does not forgive others?

Do you think there is someone here who no longer believes in Christ?

What exactly are you trying to imply will cost people their salvation?

What he really means is that we are lost because we dare to use Scripture as the basis of our faith, and that we are not members of the SDA.

 

[OldRegular]

What he really means is that we are lost because we dare to use Scripture as the basis of our faith, and that we are not members of the SDA.

Seventh Day Adventist has been a works based religion much like the Roman Catholics and the Mormons. I had heard they were leaving that behind but apparently not.

 

[Yeshua1]

Seventh Day Adventist has been a works based religion much like the Roman Catholics and the Mormons. I had heard they were leaving that behind but apparently not.

the main concern of BOB would be that we refuse to accept the Sabbath as God gave it to Isreal, so would be taking mark of the beast upon ourselves!

the ONLY true cult that I have ever heard was redeemed byt he Lord as the main Church of God of Armstrong, as the main branch did see the light of the Gospel of the real truth!

Wondere what BOB thinks of them, as they held to strict Sabbath/OT laws to follow!

 

[OldRegular]

the main concern of BOB would be that we refuse to accept the Sabbath as God gave it to Isreal, so would be taking mark of the beast upon ourselves!

the ONLY true cult that I have ever heard was redeemed byt he Lord as the main Church of God of Armstrong, as the main branch did see the light of the Gospel of the real truth!

Wondere what BOB thinks of them, as they held to strict Sabbath/OT laws to follow!

I read the same thing about Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God. Hanegraaff discusses this in his revision of Walter Martin's The Kingdom of the Cults.

 

[BobRyan]

What he really means is that we are lost because we dare to use Scripture as the basis of our faith, .

If you are claiming to suddenly be interested in a sola scriptura basis for discussion in your posts - I welcome the change.

Feel free to begin at any moment.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, I have to ask you a question, just what is it that you seem to think everybody is doing that is going to cost them their salvation?

Hold on thar - I am quoting Paul on HIS warning to the saved to "you who stand by our faith" --

==============================


[FONT=&quot]
[/FONT]Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them.

15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?

16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”


20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.

22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
.

===================

The OSAS argument dies here at several points.

1. It dies if the argument tries to ignore "But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles."

2. it dies in that Paul's "Graft them in again" is specific to " move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them"
3. And it dies in that the gentiles that ARE saved are being grafted in WITH THEM - with the "SOME" of the Jews that are saved. " you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them"

4. And of course it dies in that the Gentile who 'stand by your faith" is being "Warned" about being cast into the lost position of those Jews who even OSAS people admit are lost.

"the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."

==============

I believe we are free not to twist-wrench-bend this warning Paul gives to "you who stand by your faith". We need not bend the text in service to OSAS. We an instead let the warning stand just as it is.

In the same way the "forgiveness revoked" warning of Christ to those who are "fully forgiven" is also allowed to stand without twisting or bending it to meet the tradition of OSAS.

Your response appears to suggest that I not accept the Bible as it reads in this regard unless I want to accuse everyone of some sin. I don't think that is a requirement for accepting the Bible as it reads.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[BobRyan]

The Jews mentioned in Romans 11 that God cut off were unbelievers, !

The "YOU who stand by your faith" in Romans 11 is spoken by Paul to Gentiles NOT to fallen Jews. Which is the point that OSAS fails.

You need to stop being so fearful of the text and holding it at such a distance that you get almost no details from it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Winman]

Bob, I am not going to keep arguing with you. Romans 11 is contrasting Jews and Gentiles. The Jews have been cut off because of unbelief. Paul is now taking the gospel to the Gentiles.

Verse 21 is simply warning the Gentiles that if they also fall away in unbelief they will likewise be cut off.

And that is exactly what is going to happen, the "fullness of the Gentiles" is going to be complete, and God will go to the Jews once again.

The whole problem with Romans chapters 9-11 is that folks interpret it to be speaking of individual salvation when it is contrasting the Jews and Gentiles.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them (Jews) which fell, severity; but toward thee (Gentiles), goodness, if thou (Gentiles) continue in his goodness: otherwise thou (Gentiles) also shalt be cut off.
23 And they (Jews) also, if they (Jews) abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them (Jews) in again.
24 For if thou (Gentiles) wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these (Jews), which be the natural branches, be graffed into their (Jews) own olive tree?
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye (Gentiles) should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye (Gentiles) should be wise in your (Gentiles) own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them (Jews), when I shall take away their (Jews) sins.

Verse 21 is not saying a saved person can lose salvation. Those Jews spoken of NEVER believed. And Paul is not speaking of individuals in this chapter, but nations (Jews versus Gentiles).

 

[BobRyan]

Bob, I am not going to keep arguing with you. Romans 11 is contrasting Jews and Gentiles.

According to Paul in Romans 11 - some of the Jews are saved, some are lost.

He then addresses the "you who stand by faith" (saved Gentiles) and claims that they are in a situation where they need to be warned of a very real problem.

Even you had to admit that the Jews that were cut off - were lost.

That means that the saved Gentile is being warned about being put in the position of what even you admit is a lost Jew.

i.e. - the death of OSAS. It does not matter if you reject the Bible teaching on about the Jews being saved before or being brought back to salvation. All you have to do is at least admit that the Jews cut off - are lost - and the fact that it is being threatened against saved Gentiles - destroys OSAS with that detail - alone.

Verse 21 is simply warning the Gentiles that if they also fall away in unbelief they will likewise be cut off.

indeed it is warning a saved Gentile who DOES "stand by your faith" that they will be put in the same position as what even you admit is a lost Jews if they do not persevere.

i.e. The death of OSAS.

The whole problem with Romans chapters 9-11 is that folks interpret it to be speaking of individual salvation

Probably because the "you who stand by your faith" is not a nation - it is the individual gentile in the church at Rome.

Also because the "save SOME of them" idea that Paul mentions -- is individual not "the nation".

Also because the "Some" Jews that are believers (individuals not nations) are said to be in the same tree, joined to the "SOME" Gentiles that "stand by your faith" (Individuals obviously - not nations).

And there is no way to turn that into "nations not individuals".

Thus the "Bible details" in Romans 11 are the death of OSAS.

Which is why I keep bringing them up.

when it is contrasting the Jews and Gentiles.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them (Jews) which fell, severity; but toward thee (Gentiles), goodness, if thou (Gentiles) continue in his goodness: otherwise thou (Gentiles) also shalt be cut off.

No "nation of gentiles" is being addressed here - because as we all know - when Paul was writing ALL "nations of gentiles" were pagan - not Christian.

This "also be cut off" refers not to the "Saved Jews" mentioned earlier who are joined with the saved gentiles. But lost Jews -

That only works as individuals -- unless you have some concept of multiple- jewish nations.

Vs 13 -14 are individuals - in Rome in the case of Gentiles. Obviously these verses cannot be bent into "nations". Save "Some of them" speaking of Jews -- individuals -- not of a bunch of Jewish nations. "You who are gentiles" first order application is individual gentile Christians in Rome -- impossible to miss.
'
Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them.

Vs 17 - are individuals "Some branches" - in Rome in the case of Gentiles. Obviously these verses cannot be bent into "nations". "Partakers with them" this is the individual gentiles that are saved, and individual Jews that are saved. No way to bend this into a bunch of saved Jewish nations and saved Gentiles nations that are fellow partakers.


17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Winman]

We will have to agree to disagree.

 

[OldRegular]

Hold on thar - I am quoting Paul on HIS warning to the saved to "you who stand by our faith" --

==============================



Bob

And ignoring the rest of the New Testament! You keep posting the same excerpts from Romans 11 in an attempt to prove whatever. Endless posting of the same Scripture don't work. Can't be ignored but must be interpreted in the context of all Scripture, which you ignore. Furthermore, I believe Paul's use of the olive tree must be considered a parable and care used in its interpretation.

I posted the following on another thread. It is so good I believe I will post it here:

Read the following and then you decide, but decide correctly!

Hebrews 9:11-14
11. But Christ being come an high priest of good things to come, by a greater and more perfect tabernacle, not made with hands, that is to say, not of this building;
12. Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13. For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14. How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

I believe eternal redemption means eternal redemption!