Curious...does he identify the RCC as a cult?
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The Time is Near - He who is Righteous will be Righteous still
- Thread starter BobRyan
- Start date
Curious...does he identify the RCC as a cult?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
I have not read Hanegraaff's revision cover to cover. Only got it because my original version by Martin disappeared somewhere. If my memory is correct I believe Martin indicated that the only reason he did not classify Roman Catholicism as a cult was because of its size but I could be wrong on this.
evangelist-7
New Member
Martin said the RCC were just borderline cult ... mostly because of their belief in the Trinity.
In the early 80's, I went to a week-long meeting of his at a small church ... great.
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Doesn't hebrews also staste that he is able to save FOREVER any and all who come unto Him for salvation?
Think Jude in his benediction agrees!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Wonderful passage of Scripture. Strange what people will ignore to justify their miserable doctrine.
Hebrews 7:24-28, NASB
24. but He, on the other hand, because He abides forever, holds His priesthood permanently.
25. Hence, also, He is able to save forever those who draw near to God through Him, since He always lives to make intercession for them.
26. For it was fitting that we should have such a high priest, holy, innocent, undefiled, separated from sinners and exalted above the heavens;
27. who does not need daily, like those high priests, to offer up sacrifices, first for His own sins, and then for the sins of the people, because this He did once for all when He offered up Himself.
saturneptune
New Member
I have to wonder, for those who slip in and out of salvation on a daily basis, if one buys a case of beer, what is the number that trips the wire? Perhaps five, six, seven? In a fifty two week period, how many Sundays does won miss to face the same fate? It is 4, 5 or 6 unexcused absences? Does God accept a signed note from a doctor?
And finally, if Janet Reno is walking by in short shorts, how many times can one crane their neck around and be safe?
And finally, if Janet Reno is walking by in short shorts, how many times can one crane their neck around and be safe?
No, no, your missing their entire argument. They believe you can sin everyday (habitually that would be) but as long as you confess after each time you are good to go. They have a religion going on and are missing the relationship with God, which God describes in the bible. They are focused on self rather than looking to Jesus Christ, the Author and Finisher of our faith.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Originally Posted by Winman
Bob, I have to ask you a question, just what is it that you seem to think everybody is doing that is going to cost them their salvation?
Hold on thar - I am quoting Paul on HIS warning to the saved to "you who stand by our faith" --
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[FONT="]
[/FONT]Rom 11
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles. Inasmuch then as I am an apostle of Gentiles, I magnify my ministry,
14if somehow I might move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them.
15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
18 do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.”
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
22Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off.
23And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
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The OSAS argument dies here at several points.
1. It dies if the argument tries to ignore "But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles."
2. it dies in that Paul's "Graft them in again" is specific to " move to jealousy my fellowcountrymen and save some of them"
3. And it dies in that the gentiles that ARE saved are being grafted in WITH THEM - with the "SOME" of the Jews that are saved. " you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them"
4. And of course it dies in that the Gentile who 'stand by your faith" is being "Warned" about being cast into the lost position of those Jews who even OSAS people admit are lost.
"the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off."
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I believe we are free not to twist-wrench-bend this warning Paul gives to "you who stand by your faith". We need not bend the text in service to OSAS. We an instead let the warning stand just as it is.
In the same way the "forgiveness revoked" warning of Christ to those who are "fully forgiven" is also allowed to stand without twisting or bending it to meet the tradition of OSAS.
Your response appears to suggest that I not accept the Bible as it reads in this regard unless I want to accuse everyone of some sin. I don't think that is a requirement for accepting the Bible as it reads.
Another text to consider along those lines.
Matt 18
[FONT="]32 ""Then summoning him, his lord said to him, "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me.
33 " Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?'
34 ""And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him.[/FONT]
[FONT="]35 "" My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.'' [/FONT]
Because OSAS does not survive Romans 11 or Gal 5:4 or Matt 18 or Ezek 18 or John 15:1-8 or ...
I simply point out where OSAS assumptions fail.
OldRegular said:
You believe that eternal redemption means "OSAS from the moment you accept Christ" and that all the Bible texts that disprove that outright - should be watered down, down-sized, side stepped as in the case with Romans 11 and Matt 18.
You have free will - you can choose that path if you like. But not everyone will do it.
in Christ,
Bob
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paul was describing UNBELIEVING JEWS were cut off, NOT those who believed in jesus, then God cut them off!
Jesus stated that he will raise up in last Day ALL the father gave to Him, NONE of them shall be lost...
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
john 6:37 Esv
What did he mean, for that statement means more than all the rest of the Bible together concerning eternal life and having it forever!
Jesus stated that he will raise up in last Day ALL the father gave to Him, NONE of them shall be lost...
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.
john 6:37 Esv
What did he mean, for that statement means more than all the rest of the Bible together concerning eternal life and having it forever!
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Your Bible avoidance solution is not working in Romans 11.
Let's observe.
First case in point.
13But I am speaking to you who are Gentiles
In this letter to the Church in Rome Paul addresses the believing Gentiles in Rome specifically. (And of course all believing individuals who who later read this text)
Notice that your "paul was describing UNBELIEVING JEWS were cut off, NOT those who believed in jesus," - is useless for vs 13 cannot be bent to that purpose.
Second case in point:
17 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree,
These are SAVED Gentiles AND SAVED Jews "partakers together".
your "paul was describing UNBELIEVING JEWS were cut off, NOT those who believed in jesus," - is useless for vs 17 cannot be bent to that purpose.
20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear;
(I am speaking to you who are Gentiles)
In this letter to the Church in Rome Paul addresses the believing Gentiles in Rome specifically. (And of course all believing individuals who who later read this text)
your "paul was describing UNBELIEVING JEWS were cut off, NOT those who believed in jesus," - is useless for vs 20 cannot be bent to that purpose.
21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either.
Here then is the death of OSAS - because Gentile believer who "stand by their faith" in the church of Rome are being warned of a fate like the fallen Jews (the lost).
Cannot turn these gentile believers into "fallen Jews" for these gentiles "stand by your faith".
Each time the Bible details do not fit your man-made traditions - you ignore them.
Why keep doing that?
in Christ,
Bob
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
There comes a time in the future -- before the 2nd coming "Behold I come quickly" when the lost no longer will accept the Gospel.
10 And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. 11Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”
12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
And the saved no longer lose salvation.
in Christ,
Bob
10 And he *said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near. 11Let the one who does wrong, still do wrong; and the one who is filthy, still be filthy; and let the one who is righteous, still practice righteousness; and the one who is holy, still keep himself holy.”
12 “Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done.
And the saved no longer lose salvation.
in Christ,
Bob