The Time of Abram's justification before God

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

• DW: Paul's word in the very context of justification of Abraham that it is "the ungodly" that God justifies. Did God justify Abraham? If so, he was "ungodly" as that is the only kind of man Paul says God justifies:

  But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

HP: God can justify the righteous as well as the wicked. Justification has more than one sense. I believe God clearly justified Job. He certainly had some new information to give Job but God never charged Job with sin. Enoch and Elijah never saw death, and there is no indication they sinned. They were justified before God.

Again you are taking the word or variations of the word “justify” and applying a very narrow application. I say with the Apostle James that faith alone will not save anyone because if there are no just works that follow, ones faith is simply dead. We are ‘justified’ in three tenses not simply one. We have been justified, we are being justified, and we will be justified. The righteous can and are justified. Here is an example of the righteous being justified. I believe that when we act in a just manner, God justifies our actions as being just and righteous. De 25:1 ¶ If there be a controversy between men, and they come unto judgment, that the judges may judge them; then they shall justify the righteous, and condemn the wicked.

DW: 2. Moses points out that he was a Gentile or Chaldean by birth:

HP: Your logic is flawed. It matters not where one came out of, or what others were practicing. Again, Enoch is a shining example.

DW: However, Romans 4:5 should be plenty proof as the ONLY KIND OF MAN God justifies is "the ungodly" and since God justified Abraham by faith INSTEAD OF by works he must have been "UNGODLY"

HP: Simply false. Your OSAS will have it no other way, but because A justifies B does not mean A cannot justify C on different grounds under different conditions. All in this dispensation are indeed lost sinners, but there is evidence that in the OT that may not always have been the case. Limit your comments to this dispensation and I would be inclined to agree at least on some points.

 

[DHK]

HP: God can justify the righteous as well as the wicked.

If you are going to play word games there is no need for debate.
A righteous person is already justified. A simple definition for justification is "just as if I never sinned," the same as "being made righteous." God can only justify the ungodly for the ungodly are the only ones that need justifying.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

Justification is God's declaration that we are in a right relationship with Him. Abraham was justified on at least three separate occasions. Those of us who have been justified will be justified again on Judgment Day (Mat. 12:35-37).

 

[Dr. Walter]

Justification is God's declaration that we are in a right relationship with Him. Abraham was justified on at least three separate occasions. Those of us who have been justified will be justified again on Judgment Day (Mat. 12:35-37).

He was not justified on three separate occasions. Genesis 15:6 uses the Perfect tense just as Genesis 12:1 uses the perfect tense "Had said" as both of these occasions refer back to when Abraham was in Ur of the Chaldees when the gospel was preached to Abraham (Gal. 3:7-8) before he left to go to Haran. Both occassions (Gen. 12:1; Gen. 15:6) were reaffirmations of the same initial promise and the perfect tense demonstrates that the initial belief of Abraham in Ur of the Chaldees was a completed action when God imputed righteousness unto him (Gal. 3:7) that continued completed at each reaffirmation of the same promise. It is similar to I John 5:13 where John writes to those who already believe in Jesus Christ in to reaffirm and strengthen continuing beleif.

Secondly, Paul's conclusion of the justification of Abraham in Romans 5:1-2 uses the perfect tense demonstrating that the justification of Abraham was not a PROGRESSIVE justifying but a completed action at a point in the past that stands completed.

Thirdly, Paul pinpoints his justification PRIOR to being circumcised and denies he was justified "in circumcision" which destroys your progressive justification theory as your theroy would have him justified "in circumcision" as much as "in uncircumcision" (Rom. 4:11).

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

Abraham was justified in Genesis 12, 15, and 22. Romans 4 is about his justification in Genesis 15. James 2 is about his justification in Genesis 22.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Abraham was justified in Genesis 12, 15, and 22. Romans 4 is about his justification in Genesis 15. James 2 is about his justification in Genesis 22.

You are distorting God's Word without a fabric of evidence. I have just given you grammatical evidence that you are wrong and you simply just repeat your error and that is the hallmark of heretics.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

The perfect tense does not indicate that an action never needs to be repeated. Washing and sanctification are spoken of in the perfect tense in I Cor. 6:11, and these are not one-time actions.

 

[Dr. Walter]

The perfect tense does not indicate that an action never needs to be repeated. Washing and sanctification are spoken of in the perfect tense in I Cor. 6:11, and these are not one-time actions.

First, Romans 5:1-2 uses both the Aorist with the Perfect to describe our STANDING of grace as completed in the past and continues completed to the present. So the combination of Aorist and perfect combined defy your attempt to go OUTSIDE the context find a perfect tense case to READ BACK INTO this context - that is called eisegesis.

Romans 4:3 as well as Romans 4:9-11 deny progressive justification or a future point of justification as it pinpoints the justification being defined by Paul as a completed action PRIOR TO circumcision whereas your false veiw would require an intition INCOMPLETED action that is progressively INCOMPLETED which calls for the imperfect or present tense.

There is no repeated action in I Cor. 6:11 as this refers to conversion which STANDS COMPLETED up to the present time of speaking. We were regenerated (washed) and set apart (sanctified) but once and it stands completed up to the present (washed). We were justified by faith in Christ but once and it stands completed up to the present.

 

[adisciplinedlearner]

Not only do Genesis 12, 15, and 22 show that justification is repeatable, but Matthew 12:35-37 and Romans 2:6-13 teach the doctrine of future or final justification. Your idea that justification is only a one-time event does not fit with the totality of Scripture. In fact, it is contrary to Scripture.

 

[Dr. Walter]

Not only do Genesis 12, 15, and 22 show that justification is repeatable, but Matthew 12:35-37 and Romans 2:6-13 teach the doctrine of future or final justification. Your idea that justification is only a one-time event does not fit with the totality of Scripture. In fact, it is contrary to Scripture.

You consistently call Jesus Christ a liar by using debatable texts to repudiate clear precepts - another hall mark of heretics! John 5:24 denies that believers will be brought into any future judgement in regard to "life" or "death" but that judgement has already occurred as a perfect tense completed action that stands completed - thus no future judgement:

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation;[lit. Gr "judgement"] but is passed [perfect tense] from death unto life.

Matthew 12:25-27 and Romans 2:6-13 teach no such thing. In both contexts it is the wicked who are being addressed. In Romans 2:6-13 Paul simply sets forth the righteous criteria for judement under the law of God and the consequences as the preceding and following contexts refer to those who believe they can escape judgement based upon their own works of righteousness (vv. 1-5, 17-24).

Matthew 12:25-27 is addressing the very same self-righteous crowd who live by the law and will be judged by the law under the same just criteria.

 

[DHK]

Not only do Genesis 12, 15, and 22 show that justification is repeatable, but Matthew 12:35-37 and Romans 2:6-13 teach the doctrine of future or final justification. Your idea that justification is only a one-time event does not fit with the totality of Scripture. In fact, it is contrary to Scripture.

This is the equivalent doctrine of "you must be born again and again and again. True?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: This is the equivalent doctrine of "you must be born again and again and again.

HP: Just like those preaching OSAS when they fall into condemnation and are honest enough to admit it. They have to do their first works over again and deny they were saved before…..all to remain in good standing with those that demand homage to OSAS. I have witnessed it personally with my own eyes and ears.

 

[DHK]

HP: Just like those preaching OSAS when they fall into condemnation and are honest enough to admit it. They have to do their first works over again and deny they were saved before…..all to remain in good standing with those that demand homage to OSAS. I have witnessed it personally with my own eyes and ears.

No you haven't. You have never witnessed something impossible to happen.
Can God create a rock so big that he cannot lift it?

Can God create eternal life that is not eternal?

Can God give eternal life and take it away?

Perhaps you better give some serious thought to those questions.

 

[Dr. Walter]

This is the equivalent doctrine of "you must be born again and again and again. True?

You know the grammar and the chronology of Gal. 3:7-8 with Genesis 12:1-3 and Genesis 15:3 demonstrates that all of these point back to the same point in time inGenesis 11:31 when Abraham was in Ur of the Chaldees before he left for Canaany by Haran.

For example, according to Paul (Gal. 3:8) the gospel was preach to and believed in by Abraham and imputed as righteousness to Abraham in Genesis 12:3. Compare what is identified as the gospel in Galatians 3:8b with Genesis 12:3b. Paul pinpoints the time with Genesis 12:3. However, Genesis 12:1 uses the perfect tense "had said" to place this whole conversation back in Genesis 11:28-31.

Likewise, Genesis 15:6 uses the same perfect tense which should have also been translated "had believed" to show that what Abraham believed in Genesis 11:28-31 that was imputed to him for righteousness was merely reaffirmed and continuation of the state of beleif rather than a new belief and new justification. God simply expounded further on the initial promise and Abraham continued in his initial completed state of faith in regard to this promise. It was a reaffirmation rather than a replication. It was the continued state of faith in the same promise expanded and continued state of imputation rather than a replication of either.

This is like I John 5:13, where John writes to those who believe in Christ in order that their faith might be reaffirmed rather than rebelieving all over again or repeated believings throughout their lives.

Those who are justified by faith as a completed action in gospel conversion continue in that completed state of faith and will to jesus comes again and with each new revelation or understanding that faith is simply reaffirmed.