Originally posted by Yelsew:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> </font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Yelsew: Does the course of the earth not cause changes all over the earth including seasonal death of many species that populate the earth? Did man's sin cause that?
PappaBear: Yes, death was brought about by sin, particularly according to Romans 5:12 the sin of Adam. To say otherwise libels God and makes Him responsible for death, violence, disease, and catastrophe. Such thinking makes God approving of the survival of the fittest.</font>[/QUOTE]Yelsew: One need only read the creation order in Genesis to see that the Earth was created and set in is perpetual course long before the first man was made out of the dust of the earth. Man is the LAST of God's creative efforts, everything else was in its place doing its assigned tasks before man was given the breath of life! Now you tell me, just how it is that sin caused the world to be the way it is! Notice I said "the world" not man! </font>[/QUOTE]
How do you see that kind of time period from creation's order? You make an assumption from the text that directly contradicts what the text itself says. "The evening and morning were the first day," "...second day," and so on to the sixth day. The Hebrew use of "evening and morning" shows a 24 hour period. Exodus 20:11 and 31:17 says that the earth was created in 6 days and on the seventh God rested. So to read such a time period into creations order is to directly contradict the word of God.
Yelsew: Did man's sin cause the seasons?
Well, originally I thought you were discussing creation? According to Gen. 2:5,6, there was no rain prior to man's creation. That would mean no spring rainy season, no winter with falling snow, no summer or fall to contrast that with. No, I do not believe that there were weather patterns before the flood like we see today. Even archaeology establishes a tropical atmosphere as described in Gen. 2:5,6. Based upon the principle of first mention, I believe you did not have that kind of dramatic weather patterns until after the flood, because it is not mentioned in scripture until Gen. 8:22 when Noah came off the ark. Since man's sinful nature caused the flood, then yes, the blame for seasonal changes can be laid at his door step.
Yelsew: Did man's sin cause the Grass to grow, to flower, to seed then to die?
No. There is vast difference between animal and human "life" and "death" and that of the plant kingdom. But part of the curse because of man's sin was the thorns and briars that this earth now brings forth.
Yelsew: Did man's sin cause the oceans and the land masses to be formed?
Once again, considering that man's sin is why God brought about the flood, then yes. According to Gen. 1:9,10, the water was gathered together into one place and the land was one unit prior to the flood. Gen. 7:11 says that all the fountains of the great deep (a single ocean) were broken up -- this would have resulted in the break up of the continents and beginning of continental drift. Continental drift can be measured, by the way. If you ever examine the speed and current distance of the continents from each other, then the time factor conclusion is quite amazingly close to Noah's flood.
Yelsew: Did man's sin cause the mountains to be raised up, the deserts to be made arid?
Yes, considering the flood. Remember, according to Gen. 2:5,6 you have a tropical climate throughout -- no arid jungles until after the flood and the drastic differing climatic patterns. And don't forget the break up of the continents which would have caused tectonic forces and volcanic activity to push up, crinkle, and change many of the geographical landscapes we see today. There were mountains before (Gen. 7:20), but not likely as dramatic as what we see today.
Yelsew: ...the jungles to be as they are complete with man-eating animals?
There were no man-eating animals until the Noahic Covenant, and no animal-eating men, either. (Gen. 9:2-5) According to that passage, there was no fear between mankind and beasts until after the flood -- and why should there have been? They didn't eat each other. In fact, both man and beast were created as vegetarians (Gen. 1:29,30).
Yelsew: Let us also consider the beguiling serpent, the deception that was presented to Eve by that serpent. God it must be supposed, also created the serpent.
I am not sure where you are going with this one, but ok. According to Gen. 3:1, God made the serpent as a subtil beast. According to Gen. 3:14 God cursed it so that
THEN (after man's sin) it crawled on its belly. Also, interesting that animals such as snakes converse with people at this time, huh? It seems that Noahic Covenant meant a
lot of changes due to the depravity of pre-flood mankind.
Yelsew: Also tell us about the fall of Lucifer and his followers from heaven. Where did they go when they were cast out of heaven?
Well, it seems that Satan presents himself in heaven at a called meeting of angels in the book of Job. In Daniel 8:10 and Rev. 12:7-10 Satan is before the throne of God accusing us until war in heaven has him cast out into the earth during the Great Tribulation. It is then that he will be cast out of heaven and to the earth, having only a little time left.
I can only proffer an opinion about where he went after his removal as the annointed cherub since the Scriptures do not specifically tell us, but I suspect that the time between that and his beguiling of Eve was very little. Some have conjectured that the Ezekiel 28 passage indicates it is at this time that sin is found in Satan. Ezekiel 28:13 speaks of him being in Eden, the Garden of God, and verse 15 says he was perfect until "iniquity was found in thee." Seeing that God particularly cursed the serpent for his part in the temptation of Eve, it makes sense that the discovery of his iniquity was when he did that temptation.
But, there are also problems with that view, so I will not argue it strongly.
What is Satan called? Is he, or to be fair to the feminist, 'she' not called the "prince(ess) of the powers of the air"? Is satan not referred to as "the father of lies, or for the feminist "the mother of all liars"? Did Satan's fall not occur before man was created? Was sin, or the potential for sin not present on the earth before man was made?
Yes, Satan is currently the prince of the power of the air -- but he hasn't always been. At some point he was the annointed cherub that covered the throne of God. When did he become this prince? Sometime after he fell. Yes, it only makes sense that his "fall" occured before man's fall, but not before man's creation. Satan is one of God's created beings, and God's summation of all of creation at the end of it, even after creating man, was that it was very good. (Gen. 1:31-2:1) If Satan had fallen at that time, then God could not have said this, or he would have been thereby approving of sin.
Remember that in the Bible in places such as Daniel and Revelation, angels are referred to as "stars". It is significant that the creation of stars are mentioned in a peculiar way on the fourth day (Gen. 1:16). Consider also that angels were created as servants to men (Heb. 1:14), it would not make sense to create them much before creating mankind.
When Satan "fell" it was not to the earth. For since his fall had to have occured after the creation of angels, and after God's declaration of all creation as good and we have no mention of destruction of the earth adversely affecting mankind, and there is no indication of sin in the world. In fact, Romans 5:12 specifically shows that to be the Apostle Paul's belief from his reading of the Genesis record since he said "... by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin..." We find that Satan is NOT at that the time the prince of the power of the air, but all the earth is subjected to man. Since I suspect that you are going to argue this particular point especially hard, I feel compelled to print out the scriptures rather than merely reference them concerning this.
Gen. 1:
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.
Psalm 8:4 What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
6 Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:
7 All sheep and oxen, yea, and the beasts of the field;
8 The fowl of the air, and the fish of the sea, and whatsoever passeth through the paths of the seas.
Hebrews 2:
6 But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
Man was then the custodial ruler of the earth. He had dominion over everything, including the birds of the air.
Yelsew: Did the seasons on earth not exist before man was made? Then how is it that man's sin has any effect upon that which God designed and made, and set into perpetual motion?
Because God said so. In Genesis 3:14, God cursed the serpent for his part in man's fall. I think it best to quote Genesis 3:17-19 for you.
Genesis 3:
17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.
It is significant to notice in this passage that the ground is particularly cursed by God, that prior to man's fall it did not yield thorns and thistles, and that man did not have to work (sweat) to eat of it. (That kind of applies to one of your first questions about grass growing, flowering, and dying).
Yelsew: All I'm asking is that you think with your God given power to do so. Realize that it does not matter that Sin was here first, but that it was not until man was created with the ability to choose, that man chose to sin! Man retains that ability to choose, and when shown the better way, man must choose to take that way else he is lost for ever to perish, BY DESIGN from the foundation of the world! That is, before the first man was made!
I disagree, my friend. If you take from man his responsibility in sin, you take away his
reason to choose. If you make God responsible for death, disease, and suffering through creation, you profane Him with a worse cruelty than those electionists who believe God ordained certain men to hell. At least in their view, God has reason to do so! In the view you are currently proposing, you have God creating the earth with death and suffering for
no reason at all. Man retained almost
nothing in the fall because he surrendered his dominion to Satan. Man was once a prince, and the kingdoms of this world were not then Satan's to offer as he did to Christ in the wilderness temptation. But man did sin and surrendered his custodial power over creation to the vile thief and destroyer who is
now the "prince of the power over the air."
Yelsew: NO! man was not made to be a physically eternal being any more than the world tha man was made from and lives on was designed to be an eternal place.
You did not answer my previous question to you. What did God breathe into man?
I have another item for you to consider. Do you remember after man had sinned and God drove him from the Garden of Eden what God did and why?
Gen. 3:
22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:
23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
You might find it to be an interesting study sometime on the tree of life. It was also in the midst of the Garden along with the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil (Gen. 2:9). Revelation 22 describes it as one tree bearing 12 kinds of fruit monthly (not seasonally? Remember, in paradise there were no seasons
) Remember also that Adam and Eve were told that they could eat of every other tree of the Garden, which would include this Tree of Life, except for the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. (Gen. 2:16). It certainly appears that God intended man to have an eternality about him!
Secondly, consider the rich man in hell in Luke 16. He is dead and his body is buried, but somehow in hell he has the physical capacities of feeling, sight, hearing, speech, physical thirst, and physical entrapment.
Thirdly, consider Job. He said,
Job 19:
25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.
Don't allow yourself to be guilty as others and ignore plain Bible statements in favor of your mental powers of thought. Reason from the scriptures, not against them. In those you will find a true view of Christ and life.
[ December 01, 2003, 01:40 AM: Message edited by: PappaBear ]
