The 'Traffic Jam' at the grave on Sunday morning

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

According to some well meaning Christians, there was quite a confusion on Sunday morning when Jesus appeared. Atheists mock at Christianity because of it.

What have we as Christians to answer these unbelievers?

 

[Marcia]

What are some of the specific problems the atheists see? Just give one or two examples - please don't post a long excerpt from an atheist site or anything like that.

These objections have been answered by many Christians.

Just fyi, you might want to get copies of Gleason Archer's "Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties" and Norman Geisler's "When Critics Ask."

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ed Edwards is the one who used the expression 'traffic jam' on Sunday morning when Jesus appeared to Mary. It looks to me he avoids answering my objections -- too busy with other things, or something, he said. So I opened another thread in the hope someone else might have the guts to answer.

Now you ask me to give you examples. Can't you recognise one of the most 'popular' : Ed Edwards gave it! Now I am giving it again.

But I have a minute or two been banned from a SDA-forum where I asked the same sort of questions. What's wrong with us Christians, that we refuse to answer these difficulties? (I know what, but won't now tell, because it will set the whole discourse off course.)

I showed those Adventists the authenticity of Mark16:9f, and that it is impossible to escape its implications for Christianity. Next thing: Just blocked and thrown off board!!

I find it very difficult not to use strong words, so frustrated I get! Are you not able to give me a constructive answer? Why ask all sort of apologetic high sounding super-intelligent questions? Is it actually my integrity you want to bring under suspicion? Feel free to think and say whatever you think of me; I won't put up a fight or try to retaliate. I only ask this reasonable request: Answer my questions: Was there a 'traffic jam' that Sunday morning? And how did you arrive at that conclusion? Did Mary or any other women or human being for that matter SEE Jesus rise from the dead? Because THESE are the implications of my questions which Christians seem either unable or too afraid to answer!

 

[steaver]

Because THESE are the implications of my questions which Christians seem either unable or too afraid to answer!

Your a Christian also, do you have an answer to your questions?

 

[Marcia]

I wouldn't call it a traffic jam, but there were the women who were there and the 2 angels, then Peter and John came to the tomb. The women saw the empty tomb and later Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene and others.


Lk 24
While they were perplexed about this, behold, two men suddenly stood near them in dazzling clothing;

5and as the women were terrified and bowed their faces to the ground, the men said to them, "Why do you seek the living One among the dead?
6"He is not here, but He has risen Remember how He spoke to you while He was still in Galilee,
7saying that the Son of Man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again."
8And they remembered His words,
9and returned from the tomb and reported all these things to the eleven and to all the rest. 10Now they were Mary Magdalene and Joanna and Mary the mother of James; also the other women with them were telling these things to the apostles.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Your a Christian also, do you have an answer to your questions?

GE:
Yes, thank God, I did get answers. I have no doubt left in my mind about the perfect agreement in all the Gospel accounts of the truthfulness and actuality of the resurrection of \Christ from the dead: THIS PERFECT HARMONY IN THE GOSPELS IS ITS WITNESS AND PROOF.

This is what is so heart-sore; that when I tell Christians of it, they get angry at me, eye me with suspicion, tell me I spread hate and division, even blame me of perverting the Word of God. For self-gain! they have said. I ask you, what gain is in it but of the peace that Christ gives? But, as I always answer these people: "Because of the Resurrection stand I before you".

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Marcia,
"I wouldn't call it a traffic jam, but there were the women who were there and the 2 angels, then Peter and John came to the tomb. The women saw the empty tomb and later Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene and others."

GE:
"... there were the women who were there and the 2 angels..."
No. "(There) was Mary (who) had had remained standing after (there)". That's what John 20:11a says. It also mentions the 2 angels; right. They were sitting inside the tomb (not standing outside like Luke says), and Mary noticed them as she bent over to look inside the tomb. There were no other women there, THEN! Again, Mk16:9 says Jesus "appeared to Mary first" -- which implies He appeared to her while she alone was present.
But here's the important consequence not to miss: There were more than one visit of women to the tomb that Sunday's early morning!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Marcia:
"... there were the women who were there and the 2 angels, then Peter and John came to the tomb..."

GE:
No! Read after whom Peter and John came to the tomb, John20:1-10!!!

Here's a nice one to work out. See its implications, and find the explanation to almost every 'Easter enigma', (as Wenham described them).

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Marcia:
"... then Peter and John came to the tomb. The women saw the empty tomb and later Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene and others."

GE:
"The women saw the empty tomb ..." Ja, they did. But not while Jesus appeared to Mary, naturally. And ja, for sure, "The women saw the empty tomb and later Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene...". It implies? ... ... more than one visit to the tomb! Simple; yet unacceptable for most people!

"... later Jesus appeared to Mary Magdalene and others". True; but not exactly. Because, "first", Jesus "appeared to Mary"; "and later", to the "others". Easy enough; yet so difficult for the prejudiced mind.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Who visited the Tomb the night/early morning that Jesus no longer occupied the Tomb (AKA: Resurrection Sunday)?

Mat 28:1-12 (Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
Now in the end of the Sabbath, when the first day of ye weeke began to dawne, Marie Magdalene, and the other Marie came to see the sepulchre,
2 And behold, there was a great earthquake: for the Angel of the Lord descended from heauen, and came and rolled backe the stone from the doore, and sate vpon it.
3 And his countenance was like lightning, and his raiment white as snowe.
Mat 28:4 And for feare of him, the keepers were astonied, and became as dead men.
Mat 28:5 But the Angel answered, and said to the women, Feare ye not: for I know that ye seeke Iesus which was crucified:
Mat 28:6 He is not here, for he is risen; as he saide: come, see the place where the Lord was laid,
Mat 28:7 And go quickly, and tel his disciples that he is risen from ye dead: and behold, he goeth before you into Galile: there ye shall see him: loe, I haue told you.
Mat 28:8 So they departed quickly from the sepulchre, with feare and great ioye, and did runne to bring his disciples worde.
Mat 28:9 And as they wet to tel his disciples, behold, Iesus also met the, saying, God saue you. And they came, and tooke him by the feete, and worshipped him.
Mat 28:10 Then said Iesus vnto them, Be not afraide. Goe, and tell my brethren, that they goe into Galile, and there shall they see me.
Mat 28:11 Nowe when they were gone, beholde, some of the watch came into the citie, and shewed vnto the hie Priestes all ye things that were done.
Mat 28:12 And they gathered them together with the Elders, and tooke counsell, and gaue large money vnto the souldiers,

Matthew Scene #1
1. Marie Magdalene v.1
2. the other Marie v.1
3. Angel of the Lord v.2
4. keeper #1 v.4
5. plural keepers v.4
6. Jesus v.9 - ('they' in verse 9 is #1 & #2)
7. soldier of the watch v.11
8. plural soldiers of the watch v.11

When you direct a play that has everybody - you have to have at least eight for this scene at the empty tomb but you can have three keepers and half a dozen 'some of the watch' - that makes 15 total.

Praise the Lord - Jesus Arose from the Dead!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mar 16:1-14 Geneva Bible, 1599 Edition):
And when the Sabbath day was past, Marie Magdalene, and Marie the mother of Iames, and Salome, bought sweete oyntments, that they might come, and anoynt him.
Mar 16:2 Therefore early in the morning, the first day of the weeke, they came vnto the sepulchre, when the Sunne was nowe risen.
Mar 16:3 And they saide one to another, Who shall rolle vs away the stone from the doore of the sepulchre?
Mar 16:4 And when they looked, they saw that the stone was rolled away (for it was a very great one)
Mar 16:5 So they went into the sepulchre, and saw a yong man sitting at the right side, clothed in a long white robe: and they were sore troubled.
Mar 16:6 But he said vnto them, Be not so troubled: ye seeke Iesus of Nazareth, which hath bene crucified: he is risen, he is not here: behold the place where they put him.
Mar 16:7 But goe your way, and tell his disciples, and Peter, that he will goe before you into Galile: there shall ye see him, as he said vnto you.
Mar 16:8 And they went out quickly, and fled from the sepulchre: for they trembled, and were amased: neither said they any thing to any man: for they were afraide.
Mar 16:9 And when Iesus was risen againe, early the first day of the weeke, he appeared first to Marie Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seuen deuils:
Mar 16:10 And shee went and tolde them that had bene with him, which mourned and wept.

Mark Scene #2:
1. Marie Magdalene v.1
2. Marie the mother of James v.1
9. Salome v.1
10. young man sitting in the tomb (angel?) v.5 - same message as #3 in Matthew
11. Marie Magdalene v.9

Matthew Scene #1:
1. Marie Magdalene v.1
2. the other Marie v.1
3. Angel of the Lord v.2
4. keeper #1 v.4
5. plural keepers v.4
6. Jesus v.9 - ('they' in verse 9 is #1 & #2)
7. man of the watch
8. plural ones of the watch

So now the total is 11 to 18 people

Praise the Lord - Jesus Arose from the Dead!

 

[Ed Edwards]

Here is an interesting Chronology of the tomb on Resurrection Sonday

http://www.carm.org/diff/table_resurrection.htm

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Dear Ed Edwards,
Kindly note that I do NOT doubt OR question the resurrection of Jesus Christ in glorified body and flesh; it is antichrist that denies.

I question or study the things the unbelievers use as excuse for believing - one main thing being the utter confusion in the minds and apologetics of Christianity at large on ALLEGEDLY the subject of the Gospel-anecdotes specifically of the Saturday night and Sunday morning.

Your above post illustrates this very confusion. You refer to Matthew 28 from verse 1 up to and past verse 10 to explain circumstances mentioned in John 20:11 further.

Matthew is not John, and neither is Mark or Luke. And there is your only and only possible solution to the whole enigma of the day and time of Jesus' resurrection: Neither ongoingly, actually, presently, gives the actual occurrence of the resurrection! ALL imply the resurrection : in the past; only Matthew --- in verses 1-4 --- GIVES the day and time : Specifically of the resurrection; NOT of ANY visit to the tomb.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Matthew 28:1 does not give account of an actualised, accomplished visit to the tomb. It precisely states the INTENT "TO go see / have a look at the sepulchre TWO women ONLY as mentioned, literally, the two Marys, who, as mentioned, literally, "On Sabbath" "SET OUT TO SEE / GO SEE the tomb".

They obviously and undeniably DID NOT THEN actually see the grave or the event THEN happening THERE; they have just "set out" / "departed from" house, "When suddenly there was a great earthquake" - which PREVENTED their accomplishment of PURPOSE.

It is also undeniably clear they did not reach or see the grave because they only much later saw Jesus - they did not see Him RISING --- which they must have, reached they the tomb WHILE happened what happened "THEN SUDDENLY" ('kai idou'). They did not know the body no longer was in the grave even. They also learned that, AFTER the resurrection happened.

Therefore it is not allowed John 1:1 be identified with the event described in Mt28:1-4.

In Jn20:1 ONLY Mary is the observer; and she ONLY sees the stone "Rolled away". Do not read there what John did not write. Mary did not see inside the grave. She did not know the body was no longer there. She only assumed it was taken away. In fact, Mary BELIEVED the body was still in the grave, otherwise she would not "with (her) oils and spices prepared" on Friday afternoon, have gone to anoint the body, as Luke with so many words confirms she did, "when thick darkness" ('orthrou batheohs') just after midnight!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Here is an interesting Chronology of the tomb on Resurrection Sonday

http://www.carm.org/diff/table_resurrection.htm

GE:
I have checked it up, and find it just another illustration of irresponsible -- or rather very careful precaution to accept the unavoidable conclusion of the Resurrection "On the Sabbath", with all the resultant confusion.
It's a very POOR attempt, botched up without a single 'parallel' tested.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

All and every of such in fact DISINTERESTED attempts are based on the forced falsification of the first words of Mt28:1.

But that now is not yet of concern in this thread. Here I want to explain the ORDER of events of the Sunday morning.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

To make the women the eye-witnesses of Jesus' resurrection from the dead and grave is just as good or bad as the Seventh Day Adventists who make the guard the eye-witnesses of Jesus' resurrection from the dead and grave. It's incorrect and it is disrespectful of the Divineness of the Christ that was "raised in the Glory of the Father" which no man is able to see and live!
The matter becomes one of the Divinity of Christ, so serious is it.

 

[Ed Edwards]

All and every of such in fact DISINTERESTED attempts are based on the forced falsification of the first words of Mt28:1.

But that now is not yet of concern in this thread. Here I want to explain the ORDER of events of the Sunday morning.

First I recommend you figure out (with me) the cast of characters. IMHO Jesus rose from the dead on the Sabbath, just before sunset at the end of the Sabbath. None of the folks were at the tomb except the changing watch over the stone - they were changing watch and missed the whole thing. When the angel (or was it two?) came to move the stone, the guard was done asleep.
The above paragraph is NOT from the Bible but also is NOT conflicted by the Bible.

 

[Ed Edwards]

Mark 16:1-3 at:

http://www.carm.org/diff/table_resurrection.htm

1 And when the Sabbath was over, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, bought spices, that they might come and anoint Him.
2 And very early on the first day of the week, they *came to the tomb when the sun had risen.
3 And they were saying to one another, "Who will roll away the stone for us from the entrance of the tomb?

IMHO: verse 1 was after the first Sabbath that Jesus was 'in the grave', verse 2 & 3 were after the second Sabbath that Jesus was 'in the grave'.

// GE:
I have checked it up, and find it just another illustration of irresponsible -- or rather very careful precaution to accept the unavoidable conclusion of the Resurrection "On the Sabbath", with all the resultant confusion.
It's a very POOR attempt, botched up without a single 'parallel' tested. //

I said it was interesting, not correct. As you can see, I agree with you mostly.
As always "the mileage of others will vary".

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

First I recommend you figure out (with me) the cast of characters. IMHO Jesus rose from the dead on the Sabbath, just before sunset at the end of the Sabbath. None of the folks were at the tomb except the changing watch over the stone - they were changing watch and missed the whole thing. When the angel (or was it two?) came to move the stone, the guard was done asleep.
The above paragraph is NOT from the Bible but also is NOT conflicted by the Bible.

GE:
".... None of the folks were at the tomb except the changing watch over the stone ...." That is true, obvious and undeniable!

".... on the Sabbath, just before sunset at the end of the Sabbath ...." is a contradiction. Before you have said 'sunset', which is neither on the Sabbath, nor on the First Day. Mt28:1 is the only Scripture that will tell you, not, "just before sunset at the end", but unequivocally, "In Sabbath's fulness of daylight being before the First Day".

One does not read anywhere "....the changing watch over the stone - they were changing watch and missed the whole thing...." They were not 'changing' because it is not written they were changing. And they did not 'miss the whole thing' because 'they were changing'. They missed the whole thing, for sure! but they missed it because they were struck down like dead = unconscious by the light of the angel. That is written! How much less able would they have been to have withstood the glory of the Father in whose glory indeed Christ was raised from the dead!

".... the angel (or was it two?) came to move the stone ....". No, Matthew clearly enough for anyone, says, "the (one) angel of the Lord", and the verbs used, "moved the stone" and "sat down", are in the singular. So it was one angel only.

".... When the angel .... came to move the stone, the guard was done asleep. ...." It never says the guard SLEPT! They never did sleep! They never SAID or 'admitted' they slept! They never proposed to say they slept; the high priests proposed they say so, "if asked". No one ever it seems asked them that silly question!

So there's a LOT "conflicted by the Bible" in your 'paragraph'. But I appreciated your proposals Ed Edwards, Thanks a lot. It sets our investigation moving!