"The Trail of Blood..."

[Matt Black]

OK, I accept that those postings are primary sources to rufute EST ; what they are not however are primary sources for the Trail of Blood, which is the subject of this thread. Again, produce primary source docs for the Trail of Blood eg: MSS relating to Christian beliefs pertaining to the Bogomils, Cathars, Paulicians etc, and you'll have yourself a new Trail of Blood 'convert'

Yours in Christ

Matt

 

[Kiffin]

One of the most serious errors of J.M. Carroll's in his booklet was this quotation

The fourth met at Chalcedon, A.D. 451, and was called by Emperor Marian; 500 or 600 bishops or Metropolitans (Metropolitans were City pastors or First Church pastors) were present. During this Council the doctrine of what is now known as Mariolatry was promulgated. This means the worship of Mary, the mother of Christ. This new doctrine at first created quite a stir, many seriously objecting. But it finally won out as a permanent doctrine of the Catholic Church.

What he states is absolutely FALSE! He appears ignorant of Chalcedon. Chalcedon, A.D. 451 was about defending the nature of Christ again the Eutychians. The Eutychians taught that there was only one nature, the Divine, in Jesus. He said that at the moment of the Incarnation the human nature was absorbed by, or changed into, the Divine.

The Council at Chalcedon refuted this heresy by stating,

Therefore, following the holy fathers, we all with one accord teach men to acknowledge one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, at once complete in Godhead and complete in manhood, truly God and truly man, consisting also of a reasonable soul and body; of one substance with the Father as regards his Godhead, and at the same time of one substance with us as regards his manhood; like us in all respects, apart from sin; as regards his Godhead, begotten of the Father before the ages, but yet as regards his manhood begotten, for us men and for our salvation, of Mary the Virgin, the God-bearer; one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, Only-begotten, recognized in two natures, without confusion, without change, without division, without separation; the distinction of natures being in no way annulled by the union, but rather the characteristics of each nature being preserved and coming together to form one person and subsistence, not as parted or separated into two persons, but one and the same Son and Only-begotten God the Word, Lord Jesus Christ; even as the prophets from earliest times spoke of him, and our Lord Jesus Christ himself taught us, and the creed of the fathers has handed down to us.

This is one of the most serious errors in Carroll's booklet. Chalcedon was about the nature of Jesus NOT Mary. By referring to Mary as the God-bearer is making the point that Jesus was 100% human in that He had a real mother just like all people. Mariolatry is a later invention.

[ September 16, 2003, 11:29 AM: Message edited by: Kiffin ]

 

[Matt Black]

If anything, it's Ephesus (432) which unwittingly sowed the seeds of later Mariolatry, by calling Mary the theotokos ('bearer of God'). Now, this was not a statement about Mary per se, but in fact a statement about Jesus: some people (later to become the Nestorians)had been saying that Jesus had two personalities -divine and human - and that Mary had been the mother only of the human person. Ephesus refuted this by stating that Jesus was one undivided Person, both human and divine, and hence Mary was rightly the 'God-Bearer'. Unfortunately, this Christological statement was twisted subsequently into Mary being afforded the title 'Mother of God' and her being venerated in the beginnings of Mariolatry.

Chalcedon (451) as Kiffin pointed out was to do with how Jesus' one Person (Ephesus) was both divine and human. The correct answer given by the Council was that He was one Person in two Natures -human and divine - as against the Eutychian/Monophysite heresy, which held that He was only divine and merely had the appearance of being human.

Yours in Christ

Matt