The Tree and Garden

[JustChristian]

You seem to be saying that God has to learn what man will do before He can set things into motion or make a choice of His sovereign will. That makes God not all knowing, and makes men's choice sovereign over God.

Why does God make decisions? Why does He make decisions? Why did He create man, simply to watch history play out in the way he decreed? Was this satisfying to God? How does God's time relate to man's time? Is there any relationship?

You seem to know the answers to all these questions. In reality neither you nor I know anything abot them.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

I guess I'm just too stupid to debate with you. Your pompous form of writing eludes me.

Thank the Lord my Bible is not written in this manner or I wouldn't have a clue what God was trying to teach me.

If the implications of your own statements are unbearable and this is your bow out, fine. But implying negligence or deliberation on the part of God in Adam's choice to sin is what your post reflected. Now if you want to talk about pompous, such charges against God are certainly qualifiers.

 

[russell55]

Apparently to you God's Sovereignty is so weak that it is threatened by human volition (never mind God created human volition) and His Sovereignty so limited that it cannot incorporate the exercise of human volition in His decree(s).

And you blame Non-Calvinists for a weak position on Divine Sovereignty?

No one here is denying human volition, which is simply means that human beings have a will and they use it. Nor is anyone denying that God incorporates human volition (or human will or choice) into his decrees.

What they are denying is that human beings are sovereign over their choices. The highest authority (or the sovereign) over my decisions is not me, but God.

The nonCalvinist weak position on Divine Sovereignty comes from this: If human beings have sovereignty over their own decisions, then God doesn't. There can't be two highest authorities over any single choice. There can be a lesser authority and a higher authority, but only the highest authority is sovereign.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

How can both man and God be sovereign at the same time?

How can God have a plan and carry it out if He depends on sovereign, sinful man to accomplish it?

No one suggested that man and God are both to be viewed as Sovereign. In fact, here is my post again to which you responded with your comment. Let's see if this was suggested:

Apparently to you God's Sovereignty is so weak that it is threatened by human volition (never mind God created human volition) and His Sovereignty so limited that it cannot incorporate the exercise of human volition in His decree(s).

And you blame Non-Calvinists for a weak position on Divine Sovereignty?

Nope, nothing about "both man and God" being sovereign.

Secondly, I understand the bewilderment you face when you believe Sovereignty cannot incorporate human volition in the decree(s) of God because of the truncating and erring view of Divine Sovereignty offered in Calvinism.

Correcting that would be an alternative to the blurred conceptualization of the Calvinist teaching of Divine Sovereignty.

In the mean time, per the post, no one is suggesting or intimating that Divine Sovereignty is "dependent" upon anything. The fact is God in His omniscience and Sovereign exercise incorporates the volition of man in His decree(s).

The most effective illustration of this reality of the work of Divine Sovereignty incorporating into the plan of God the decision of volitional agents come from Joseph when he stated:

Genesis 50:20
But as for you, ye thought evil against me; but God meant it unto good

 

[russell55]

I guess I'm just too stupid to debate with you. Your pompous form of writing eludes me.

Thank the Lord my Bible is not written in this manner or I wouldn't have a clue what God was trying to teach me.

Amy, you are doing just fine.

People who really understand what they are writing about should be able to express themselves simply. There is as much actual substance in your posts as in anyone else's here.

 

[russell55]

Why does God make decisions? Why does He make decisions? Why did He create man, simply to watch history play out in the way he decreed? Was this satisfying to God? How does God's time relate to man's time? Is there any relationship?

You seem to know the answers to all these questions. In reality neither you nor I know anything abot them.

Who says God simply watches history play out?

The decree is simply God's plan for creation history. Do you deny that he has a plan?

And just because he has a plan, why would that mean he is simply watching history play out? Why can't he be constantly working in creation according to bring about his plan (or his purpose)?

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

No one here is denying human volition, which is simply means that human beings have a will and they use it. Nor is anyone denying that God incorporates human volition (or human will or choice) into his decrees.

What they are denying is that human beings are sovereign over their choices. The highest authority (or the sovereign) over my decisions is not me, but God.

The nonCalvinist weak position on Divine Sovereignty comes from this: If human beings have sovereignty over their own decisions, then God doesn't. There can't be two highest authorities over any single choice. There can be a lesser authority and a higher authority, but only the highest authority is sovereign.

Human's have HUMAN SOVEREIGNTY over their decisions and not DIVINE SOVEREIGNTY and failing to understand, mark and apply this distinction results in the confusion illustrated in your post.

Secondly, I know of no person here implying God does not have Sovereignty over the exercise of human volition, I only see your misrepresentation of their argument and position.

What I do see here argued is the NATURE of the function of Divine Sovereignty and human volition. But so far no one I see has made the claim, direct or implied, that God is not Sovereign. At best this is an argument from a person who, in wishing to defend their beliefs from a position of weakness is forced to misrepresent the arguments of others.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Apparently to you God's Sovereignty is so weak that it is threatened by human volition (never mind God created human volition) and His Sovereignty so limited that it cannot incorporate the exercise of human volition in His decree(s).

And you blame Non-Calvinists for a weak position on Divine Sovereignty?

Do you have something to add to the discussion without trying to tell me what I believe? Why don't you ask me?
I do believe we exercise our human volition. I also believe in an Almighty Sovereign God who through His providence, puts into place the variables that will cause us to choose in a manner that is consistent with His decreed will. I do not believe in libertarian free will.
You may want to go ahead and tell me what I believe however.... but why not ask first?

 

[webdog]

I think....however I could be wrong, that this was but a carry over from the last thread, which helps if you show the last few thoughts.

what do you think?

What's the difference if he has everyone who doesn't agree with him on ignore? What kind of answers is he looking to read, only those he agrees with?

 

[webdog]

I don't know about determinism. I really get tired of being accused of holding to any ism, especially when I don't even know what it means. I am "holding" to scripture.

Here are the FACTS:

God created man and had perfect fellowship with him.

God put a tree in the garden and told man not to eat of it or he would die.

God allowed Satan to tempt the man.

God knew the man would fall to the temptation of Satan.

God knew the man would eat of the tree.

God knew the man would die.

God knew man would need a Redeemer.

God made a plan for a Redeemer of man before he created him.

God could have NOT put the tree in the garden.

God could have NOT allowed Satan to tempt the man.

God could have maintained a perfect fellowship with the man.

BUT.....

God put the tree in the garden.......

I think you know the rest of the story.

That's the facts. The "why" I cannot tell you. I can tell you that God did the right thing. He is good.

I agree with all of that. Unfortunately, your new theolgical view does try to explain away the "why".

 

[Amy.G]

I agree with all of that. Unfortunately, your new theolgical view does try to explain away the "why".

What do you mean?

 

[webdog]

What do you mean?

God's decree and desire that there be sin.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Why does God make decisions? Why does He make decisions? Why did He create man, simply to watch history play out in the way he decreed? Was this satisfying to God? How does God's time relate to man's time? Is there any relationship?

You seem to know the answers to all these questions. In reality neither you nor I know anything abot them.

The Bible does give us some answers if you will seek them. God has nothing to learn. If He did, He would not be all knowing. Do you disagree with that?

Why does God make decisions? Why does He make decisions?

For His glory.

Why did He create man, simply to watch history play out in the way he decreed?

Again, I suppose for His glory.... but I don't have all the answers. I do not think that God sits back and watches history play out. He is present at the end already, why does He need to wait?

Was this satisfying to God?

Apparently so.

How does God's time relate to man's time?

Time was created for man, not the Creator.

Is there any relationship?

See the above answer.

 

[reformedbeliever]

Originally Posted by webdog
I agree there was a purpose. God desired man's obedience. He knew exactly how things would turn out (that's omniscience). That in no way means God desired for man to eat from the tree as has been argued here lately. It sounds like you are holding to determinism.

I'll ask you again web. I don't have a problem at all with God determining all things. Do you?
Do you think men should be the ones doing the determining?

 

[webdog]

I'll ask you again web. I don't have a problem at all with God determining all things. Do you?
Do you think men should be the ones doing the determining?

When it comes to sin, I absolutely do have a problem with God determining it, and believe that it falls on man's shoulders.

 

[reformedbeliever]

When it comes to sin, I absolutely do have a problem with God determining it, and believe that it falls on man's shoulders.

Do you think God has to wait to see what man will do before He can know it? Or has God determined what man will do?
Of course the consequences of sin fall on our shoulders. We made the choice. The choices we make will always be consistent with what God has already decreed.

 

[reformedbeliever]

When it comes to sin, I absolutely do have a problem with God determining it, and believe that it falls on man's shoulders.

You think God did not determine what happened with Joseph? What man meant for evil God MEANT for good.

 

[Amy.G]

God's decree and desire that there be sin.

I will never say that God sins or desires us to sin, especially when God commands us to be holy as He is holy.
What I'm saying is that it was all part of God's plan of redemption. God could have prevented Adam's sin, but He didn't. He had a purpose and it was carried out. We are the clay, He is the potter. He can carry out His purposes any way that He desires, whether I am able to understand it or not.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

Do you have something to add to the discussion without trying to tell me what I believe? Why don't you ask me?
I do believe we exercise our human volition. I also believe in an Almighty Sovereign God who through His providence, puts into place the variables that will cause us to choose in a manner that is consistent with His decreed will. I do not believe in libertarian free will.
You may want to go ahead and tell me what I believe however.... but why not ask first?

Since you feel warranted in prescribing to me how you would like me to respond, I recommend you apply that same standard to yourself and quit misrepresenting the stated beliefs of others which is synonymous to your very own complaint, telling someone what they believe.

However, for the record I didn't tell you what you believe I used the qualifier "apparently" which is not conclusive and not emphatic, thus falling short of telling your what you believe.

 

[Brother Bob]

made us "subject" to vanity, but now willingly. In other words He did not will us to sin.

Its not His will that any would perish, but they do, don't they, "why", because man was made "subject" to vanity.

If God can allow sin and remain Sovereign, why can't He allow repentance and remain Sovereign???

BBob,