The Tree and Garden

[npetreley]

I think, perhaps, webdog was thinking decretive will when he wrote declarative will. The decretive will of God is his plan for creation history—what he determined would come to pass in history before he created it.

Yes. Sorry for mixing them up in my post above. I agree that declarative and decretive are different.

 

[webdog]

The one that says God did not have to learn what man will do in order for Him to *know* it.

Come on RB, I expect more from you. I have NEVER stated God has to learn anything...ever.

This is worse than npetreley's lame strawman about "free willism" being man centered.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

I would like to hear more about your angel theory. This may be why we are on different planets theologically.

Glad you asked about the “Angelic Conflict”. This is a teaching embraced by and taught most thoroughly by Donald Grey Barnhouse in his book, “The Invisible War” and a compliment to this study is a work by Merrill Unger, “Biblical Demonology”.

Donald Grey Barnhouse was a renowned theologian whose work is still received and edifying believers today. Barnhouse started the Evangelical Foundation in 1949 which today is called the “The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, Inc. with the Alliance Council being made up of men such as Jerry Bridges, Sinclair Ferguson, John MacArthur, John Piper , R.C. Sproul and Albert Mohler to name a few.

Here is a bio of Barnhouse from the Alliance.

Barnhouse himself was Reformed in his theology, and Presbyterian in his denominational affiliation.

The Angelic Conflict or as Barnhouse called it, The Invisible War, covers in detail the direct, implied, deduced and theological conclusion regarding the teaching of the fall of Satan and its co-terminus ending with human history. I have imbedded links regarding Barnhouse and it is worth some time invested for discovery. He is a Reformed theologian received and praised by the men mentioned above. So as for his qualifications, they are not just that of a minister of the Word but one recognized by other leaders in Reformed theology.

 

[Brother Bob]

I'm going to quibble a little bit with the wording here, not so much because it's wrong, but I think it might lead to confusion. The word "can" here is confusing because not everyone realizes that the can't of repentence has nothing to do with God not allowing people to repent, but rather, it has to do with the nature of people since the fall. They are rebellious against God and it is their own rebelliousness that makes them unable to repent. So the can't stems from their own unwillingness.

So God never prevents anyone from repenting, but people's own rebelliousness keeps them from repenting unless God changes their hearts to make them willing to repent.

There is no contradiction between God not preventing anyone from repenting and God remaining sovereign. That's not the issue. The issue is that given humankind's condition, God's bare permission is not enough to cause anyone to repent.
I'd be willing to bet that everyone, on both sides of this issue, believes that God allows whosoever that believes to repent. The question is this: Is God's bare permission enough? Does anyone at all believe because of God's permission alone?

Thanks for taking the time to go into detail.

What do you think of the scripture "the soul that sinneth shall die", if its already dead???

BBob,

 

[Amy.G]

Glad you asked about the “Angelic Conflict”. This is a teaching embraced by and taught most thoroughly by Donald Grey Barnhouse in his book, “The Invisible War” and a compliment to this study is a work by Merrill Unger, “Biblical Demonology”.

Donald Grey Barnhouse was a renowned theologian whose work is still received and edifying believers today. Barnhouse started the Evangelical Foundation in 1949 which today is called the “The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals, Inc. with the Alliance Council being made up of men such as Jerry Bridges, Sinclair Ferguson, John MacArthur, John Piper , R.C. Sproul and Albert Mohler to name a few.

Here is a bio of Barnhouse from the Alliance.

Barnhouse himself was Reformed in his theology, and Presbyterian in his denominational affiliation.

The Angelic Conflict or as Barnhouse called it, The Invisible War, covers in detail the direct, implied, deduced and theological conclusion regarding the teaching of the fall of Satan and its co-terminus ending with human history. I have imbedded links regarding Barnhouse and it is worth some time invested for discovery. He is a Reformed theologian received and praised by the men mentioned above. So as for his qualifications, they are not just that of a minister of the Word but one recognized by other leaders in Reformed theology.

I see no purpose in your "imbedded" links for this conversation. What are your beliefs on the subject? And please provide scripture.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

I see no purpose in your "imbedded" links for this conversation. What are your beliefs on the subject? And please provide scripture.

The links are for YOUR benefit. The provide links to an exhaustive treatment to the subject matter and the qualifications of the teachers. So let me do a search of your posts and see if you have ever used LINKS. Hmmm...what do you know. Next please.

 

[npetreley]

I see no purpose in your "imbedded" links for this conversation. What are your beliefs on the subject? And please provide scripture.

My ESP is kicking in... I predict a rousing session of dodge ball.

 

[webdog]

Providing 4 links in regards to something is now considered dodging the question?

Especially considering they are reformed?

 

[Amy.G]

Providing 4 links in regards to something is now considered dodging the question?

Especially considering they are reformed?

Did you actually go to the links? They are useless and do not give any detail of this belief in the angelical conflict.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

Providing 4 links in regards to something is now considered dodging the question?

Well what is frustrating for them is they spent their virtue on haste and rashness only to discover that the source of the teaching is one of their own and not just their own but a celebrated teacher among Reformed theologians.

Obviously when one of them links to John Piper they are like mice afraid to voice their protest for links since it is one of their own. Just a review of any of these contenders for John Calvin's error reveals they regularly appeal to the details provided in linked material. But WB it isn't new that the weak always collapse and fall into the spin of one standard for themselves and another for their opponents.

And in truth they are stunned and dumbfounded to discover the source of the teacher. Ironic if not humorous. :laugh:

 

[Amy.G]

Well what is frustrating for them is they spent their virtue on haste and rashness only to discover that the source of the teaching is one of their own and not just their own but a celebrated teacher among Reformed theologians.

Obviously when one of them links to John Piper they are like mice afraid to voice their protest for links since it is one of their own. Just a review of any of these contenders for John Calvin's error reveals they regularly appeal to the details provided in linked material. But WB it isn't new that the weak always collapse and fall into the spin of one standard for themselves and another for their opponents.

And in truth they are stunned and dumbfounded to discover the source of the teacher. Ironic if not humorous. :laugh:

Why don't provide a link showing John MacArthur or R.C. Sproul endorsing this belief? I did a search and found nothing. But, maybe you are more skilled at it.

Or most likely, you are unwilling to discuss this subject from a personal standpoint?

I am asking you defend this belief in your "own" words. With scripture.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

Why don't provide a link showing John MacArthur or R.C. Sproul endorsing this belief? I did a search and found nothing. But, maybe you are more skilled at it.

Or most likely, you are unwilling to discuss this subject from a personal standpoint?

I am asking you defend this belief in your "own" words. With scripture.

Oh I see, these men are so ignorant that their association with Barnhouse as the Council of The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is based on ignorance of this extensive and well known work of Barnhouse? I see you have a low opinion of MacArthur, Sproul and the rest. Yes these men of great integrity would readily not just associate but sit on the Council of the Alliance of Barnhouse and fail to denounce this teaching? Really now Amy.

Now Amy, go to your other thread and we can keep the dialogue on that topic there since that thread is devoted to that specifically.

 

[Amy.G]

Oh I see, these men are so ignorant that their association with Barnhouse as the Council of The Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals is based on ignorance of this extensive and well known work of Barnhouse? I see you have a low opinion of MacArthur, Sproul and the rest. Yes these men of great integrity would readily not just associate but sit on the Council of the Alliance of Barnhouse and fail to denounce this teaching? Really now Amy.

Now Amy, go to your other thread and we can keep the dialogue on that topic there since that thread is devoted to that specifically.

Well, that is why I started the other thread. You are the one who began posting to the subject on this thread.

You are way out of line. It is up to you to back up your statements that J. MacArthur and R.C Sproul endorse this belief of angelic conflict, because I do not find any information to that effect. You are welcome and invited to prove me wrong, but the ball is in your court as you are the one who made the statement.

 

[JerryL]

I wonder when a thread will get started on how to get more people to know Christ.

 

[npetreley]

Did you actually go to the links? They are useless and do not give any detail of this belief in the angelical conflict.

And my ESP proves itself again!

 

[npetreley]

Well, that is why I started the other thread. You are the one who began posting to the subject on this thread.

You are way out of line. It is up to you to back up your statements that J. MacArthur and R.C Sproul endorse this belief of angelic conflict, because I do not find any information to that effect. You are welcome and invited to prove me wrong, but the ball is in your court as you are the one who made the statement.

C'mon, Amy. Don't you realize that if they're all in the same organization, they must all believe the same things, especially when it comes to critical doctrines for salvation like angelic conflict? You know, like the way all Baptists believe exactly the same things?

Dodge, dodge, dodge. I think you should know by now you'll never get a straight answer. And YOU will be blamed for not getting the straight answer.

 

[Amy.G]

C'mon, Amy. Don't you realize that if they're all in the same organization, they must all believe the same things, especially when it comes to critical doctrines for salvation like angelic conflict? You know, like the way all Baptists believe exactly the same things?

Dodge, dodge, dodge. I think you should know by now you'll never get a straight answer. And YOU will be blamed for not getting the straight answer.

I think you're right. I was hoping he would step up to the plate and actually say what he believes without hiding behind a book that I can't even discuss.

 

[Rippon]

Q's in a quagmire and he can't get out without losing face .:tear:

Q , you're as arrogant as they come . Why bash Amy when you're at fault ? Own up to your doctrines .

O , you're getting a little better with your shorter sentences . But old habits are hard to break , especially when you're trying to impress others .

 

[russell55]

Thanks for taking the time to go into detail.

What do you think of the scripture "the soul that sinneth shall die", if its already dead???

I think that verse is given in the context of the exile of the Jews. The exiles were questioning God's justice, because they thought that they were innocent victims of God's judgment. They thought that it was only the previous generations that had sinned, and they were the ones suffering in exile for it. Ezekiel's answer is that they were guilty, too, and were suffering in exile for their own sins. Those who were dying were dying for their own sins, and the only answer to the judgment they were suffering was repentence.

 

[Alex Quackenbush]

Q's in a quagmire and he can't get out without losing face .:tear:

Q , you're as arrogant as they come . Why bash Amy when you're at fault ? Own up to your doctrines .

O , you're getting a little better with your shorter sentences . But old habits are hard to break , especially when you're trying to impress others .

Ah yes, the man collapses and cries foul to the opponent whose sword fell him swiftly. I've seen this before. A malady of your ego and one not easily cured. Now, like your companions, you are losing what little balance you have with the desperate swings of ad hominems. Stay on topic poor fella and don't be so fearful of that with which you are unfamiliar.