The Trinity

You aren't actually interested in scripture are you?:tonofbricks:

 

Still struggling with the whole original position of this post, because the reality of the situation it which aspect of Neo-Platonic thought was being harmonized with at Nicea.

When one really begins to read the pantheon of Neo-Platonic philosophers there are a large variety of views to mull through. There is not one particular Neo-Platonic view which lines up exclusively with an orthodox Trinitarian view. (I'd like to see what exact sources you are pulling from to support your view and not generalizations about one or two philosophers...thanks in advance.)

btw: I had a seminary prof that talked about this view and called it "The Overly Greek Accusation" (TOGA for short) I dunno funny I guess :laugh:

 

You don't freak me out, and namedropping Athanasius, Plotinus and Philo doesn't impress me either. My guess is you haven't read any of them, or if you did you sure weren't aiming to understand them on their own terms. That's okay because it's a common mistake on this board, but usually regarding the futile c/a debate.

 

First Bound, Please post in the section for non-Baptists. This is a Baptist Only forum, and your profile states that you are non denominational . This discussion has been going on in the Other Christian Denomination Forum as well.

Secondly, realize that the Catholics in the revisionist history, like to take credit for as much as they can: the invention of the trinity, the inspiration of the Bible, putting together the canon of the Bible, etc. If they could, they would take credit for "the invention of God Himself." The Catholics owe us nothing but heresy.

Thirdly, a study of the Bible gives us what the Apostles knew, what the early believers knew, and what we know. Sola scriptura is a primary distinctive of Baptists, and early believers as is demonstrated by the Bereans in Acts 17:11

Matthew 3:16-17 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

In this passage you have each member of the triume Godhead present at the same time. There is Jesus, the One being baptized; the Holy Spirit, the One descending upon Him, and the Father's voice booming out of Heaven. All three separate persons of the One Godhead are present.
There are many verses throughout the Bible that attest individually to their deity. It takes no eisegesis, but simply Bible study to know that God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are three persons in one God. The Catholics never invented that doctrine as they claim.

 

If the doctrine of the Trinity is void/fraudulent/eisegesis, then the rest of scripture falls in upon itself.

I hope bound doesn't get led further down the road he seems to be travelling...

 

You might want to read a little more Bible and a little less of these guys. If these guys and the the Bible don't agree, then one of them is wrong - and it ain't the Bible.

 

To be fair to the poster of the OP this debate in history was all about how to understand the Bible. His suspicion is that everyone reads the Bible through her "trinitarian glasses" and it shapes what the Bible claims to her. Every heresy has its set of Scriptures to support it or there wouldn't have even been a debate in the first place.

There's some good research on this issue and it can be quite healthy to study one's roots in the early church.

 

With all due respect (and I'm not trying to start a flame war or deviation from the OP) I completely disagree with this statement. This is a harsh generalization that is both condemning to fellow Christians and, frankly, error laden. It saddens me to read this for I have many faithful Christian Catholic friends who enjoy a vibrant faith and journey with Christ.

 

okay seriously, gloves off here...

1. You can't honestly have read any of Athanasius' works and postulate this. Athanasius is one of the finest Christians available to us to look to for inspiration, an example, and orthodoxy.

2. You keep mentioning two or three people but never have actually gotten beyond them to actually introducing Neo-Plantonic philosophy. This leads me to doubt that you've done any work in this area.

3. You just questionned someone's salvation based on what?

4. What aspect of Neo-Plantonism are you taking issue with?

wow, I just don't know to say. Your reasoning here is pretty specious for the intellectually uninvolved but not for those who actually read in this area.

 

You will have to be more specific. The Catholic Church propagates damnable heresy and a religion of works which sends people to hell. Much of its doctrines cannot be found in the Bible but are man-made tradtions. Furthermore some of the Biblical doctrines that do come from the Bible, like the trinity, the Catholics take credit for having formulated. That is revisionist history or fable. The Catholics never came up with the trinity. It has always been taught in the Bible, and was believed by Christians before the Catholics even began to exist in the fourth century.

 

The RCC is good at revising history to suit themselves.

 

I understand your defense of your Catholic friends. But please understand that if they are actually Christians, they are Christian apart from and even opposed to Roman Catholic doctrine. Roman Catholicism is the illegitimate child of the Roman legal system and paganism with a veneer of Christianity. But at its heart it is still more pagan than anything else. It always has been.

 

Well good luck on your quest. However, I'd stop reading Plotinus into Athanasius because that dog won't hunt. Beyond the mirror simile there is little to connect the two besides their common familiarity with middle-platonism. This mythology that Christianity became baptized Greek philosophy early on is fashionable today among some people but it doesn't conform with the primary sources-which are legion. Sure Greek philosophical terms and discussions contributed to the development of doctrine but that is because that was the linguistic framework at hand to discuss metaphysics at the time. Making sense of Scripture was the focus of the old debate, and this is why I referred you to the Cappadocians to see for yourself if Greek philosophy or Scripture contributed more to orthodoxy (especially Basil's "On the Holy Spirit").

Broken record time: I still recommend reading Hanson's work; you may be surprised what you learn from a rather objective treatment of the Arian controversy. He is quite fair as anyone who is a true historian should be.

One other secondary source that's about a decade old, that is a little slippery but still worth a read is Maurice Wiles's "Archetypal Heresy: Arianism through the Centuries." He covers that British spat I referenced earlier and despite what the title of the book says, he is certainly an anti-Trinitarian but he's at least done some research on the matter unlike you.

Until you drop your myths and seek to objectively educate yourself on the matter I really cannot help you.

BJ

 

Pagan doctrine?

Try some of this:

Be joyful always; pray continually; give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus. Do not put out the Spirit's fire; do not treat prophecies with contempt.
1 Thess 5:16-19

May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
2 Cor. 2:14

You, however, are controlled not by the sinful nature but by the Spirit, if the Spirit of God lives in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ. But if Christ is in you, your body is dead because of sin, yet your spirit is alive becuase of righteousness. And if the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies thorugh his Spirit, who lives in you.
Romans 8:9-11

"All this I have spoken while still with you. But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you...When the Counselor comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who goes out from the Father, he will testify about me."
Jesus speaking in John 14:25-26 and 15:26

 

:thumbs: from one who lives and works in a 'Catholic country'.