The Trinity

Bound,

On a personal level it does not, and did not, matter to my beliefs where the concept of Trinity came from in history. It is totally behind the fact that I saw the concept for myself through God’s Word, and of course, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit while reading the scripture. Looking back to when I first started going to church I did not even appreciate people calling Jesus, God, as I considered the Father to be God and Jesus to be His Son. But, I honestly also struggled with who Jesus was then, because the scripture plainly had Him in the Spirit of God without measure, and Jesus Himself saying, “I and the Father are One”, and that only “through” Him will you know the Father, and that Jesus was the Word from the foundation of the world and on and on; then I realized the presence of Jesus as the Word throughout the entire Bible, YES, He was God, then factor in that the Bible said there was only One God, on top of all this I saw the Holy Spirit also as God as a mediator and presented everywhere. There is no doubt that are three parts to God, I can’t understand how God can do that, but that’s how it is, and that’s how the Word is written to us.

The philosophy of men had absolutely no bearing on how I came to understand the truths of who God was as Col 2:8 was written in my heart from pretty much the get go from the time that I asked God to know Him and have a relationship with Him. Why would the philosophy of men ever change my concept of who He is now? It wouldn't! So as for the definitions of Trinity, they are certainly as good as I could define God in my own words, that's all!

Be warned that there is an agenda behind those who deny this concept of Trinity and use such things as scare tactics of where the concept came from to steer people away from the truths of the Word, and it has a name, Satan. I don’t know what group you are hanging with, but be careful who you listen to, not me, not any man. In the Word is where you will get your truth, not through history lessons and philosophies of men, put aside these philosophies of men, listen to the Word, because if you deny the Word due to such trickery that asks you to look at the scripture in a new light all that you have left will bring you nothing but lies.

Blessings

 

Benjamin; I suppose we all struggled with that being its against nature and the natural mind, I know I did for some time. I still find myself sometimes forgetting to put it in its proper place when talking about the Father and the Son.

 

Yhe teaching of the Trinity did NOT derive from him, it was derived from the bible and Godfearinng men and woman came to the conclusion from the bible that there was/is only ONE GOD (duet 6:4) and that the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit each have personal attributes and therefore they fall into the defintion ofperson/s. In the Newtestiment we see the constant use of preprositions and referring to the FATHER, SON, and HOLY SPIRIT. Jesus said speaking of the Holy Ghost: I wiill send you ANOTHER conforter. The FATHER speaks of JESUS in the same way: This is MY beloved Son in whom I am well pleased.

1. The use of preprositins will rebuke the modolist.

2. Duet 6:4 say there is ONLY One GOD. Polytheism is a FALSE doctrine.

3. We find that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit has has the atributes of GOD and these three are that ONE God, and therefore the people that say ONLY the Father is the one true GOD will be proven false, because JESUS claimed to be the GREAT I AM (JOHN 8). And JESUS is NOT the FATHER, nor the Holy Spirit.

Does this help?

 

I myself am not overly fond of the word "trinity" in its description of the Godhead. I prefer triunity. Trinity in some ways appears to stress the "three-ness" over the "one-nes". And it is both together that is the wonder and the mystery.

Bound has raised an interesting question. And in some ways reflects some portion of the truth. But it must be remembered that Athanasius' admirable and accurate defense of trinitarian truth was a reaction to Arainism, which denied the very deity of Christ himself. And there is no doubt that John was clearly having fun with neo-platonist thought at the beginning of his gospel.

At first, I took offense at the description of Athanasius as a converted pagan. But then I realized that so was Origen, Tertullian, and especially Augustine. And then I realized that all Christians are converted pagans. Every one of us begins our reasoning life as an enemy of God. It is the badge of every Christian who truly understands his/her salvation to understand and accept that. What we are is not what we were. We are new.

Many of us have had the privelige of being raised by Christian parents and gaurdians. But being raised in a Christian home is not what makes us Christians. It is an act of the will. Whether it is an act of God's will or our own I will leave to another argument.

Is the Triune nature of God read into or out of scripture? I believe it jumps out, right from Genesis 1:1, in the beginning "elohim" created. "elohim" is both plural and singular at once. But does it require reading scripture through Christ colored glasses, most certainly.

I was a bit amused to see the quote from 1 John 5:7, because textual criticism raises a bit of a problem with that one.

Sorry for the rambling.

 

Being Baptist doesn't necessarily mean you are Calvinist. Where did you get that ieda. I am not a Calvinist, but a staunch Baptist. You have not "right" to post anywhere on the board. Posting on the BB is not a right. It is a privilege. I don't believe that Baptists are a denomination either. Again, I don't know where you get that idea from. Look up the dictionary definition of denomination and you will see that Baptists don't fall under that category. Again there is a discussion about this topic in the Other Christian Denominations Forum. If you are a Baptist say so (in your profile). If you are non-denominational then post where those forums are set aside for non-Baptists to post. Remember what the Bible says:

A double-minded man is unstable in all his ways.

That is pure nonsense. Of course, you should define your words better. What do you mean by the "takeover of the Christian Church?" The "Christian Church" was never "taken over." If it was then Christ's promises would be null and void and he would be found to be a liar. He promised that "the gates of hell would not prevail against it."
The fact is that the Catholic Church had its beginnings in the beginning of the fourth century. But what has that got to do with Biblical Christianity? Nothing. Biblical Christianity progressed throughout the centuries inspite of the heresies of the Catholic Church, in spite of what others call "The Church," referring to the RCC. It seems that you have been brainwashed with RCC revisionist history. Perhaps you need to get hold of some good Baptist History books to get a proper perspective on things.s

If you don't question sola scriptura you wouldn't be here questioning the trinity. Just because the English word "trinity" was not found in the Greek language 2000 years ago does not mean that the apostles did not believe in it. Did you expect the Apostle Paul to use the King James Version of the Bible also? Both Greek and Hebrew have ways of expressing concepts that cannot be properly translated into the English language. Thus the need for some knowledge of the original languages.

some early "so-called" Christians were also heretics. We trust in the Word of God, not what the early Christians say. I'll give you an example. Ireneaus (Sp.?) believed that Jesus lived to 80. Are you still going to put your trust in all that they say?

 

Actually the truth of the doctrine of the Trinity goes into eternity because of the "Names" of God.

A few have mentioned Scripture and someone mentioned Genesis 1:1.

The truth of the doctrine of the Trinity starts in the Old Testament:

Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.​

In this passage "God" is "Elohim".
There are two kinds of plural in Hebrew, dual and regular plural.
Dual means two (like hands, eyes).​

Elohim is a regular plural and indicates more than two.​

In the passage above Elohim speaks of Himself in the regular plural.
Here He is indicated as being multi-personed but one in "image-likeness" (these words are Hebrew singular).​

This is a part of the doctrine of the Trinity, a plurality of persons in unity.​

Three distinct persons in one divine essence.​

Genesis 3:22 And the LORD God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:​

Here the connective name of God is used the LORD God or YHVH-Elohim.
"as one of us" here the distinction of persons is shown.​

YHVH (The Tetragrammaton) is a concatenation of the the three assignments of the verb "to be" God is past, present and future and literally, YHVH means "The Eternal one".​

So God is multi-personed of eternal nature but one in essence, taught in the Book of Genesis.​

Even in the "shama"​

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God (YHVH-Elohim) is one ​

LORD: The singular essence/plural name of God is used.​

Isaiah 6:3 And one cried unto another, and said, Holy, holy, holy, is the LORD of hosts: the whole earth is full of his glory.​

Revelation 4:8 And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, Lord God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come.​

Revelation 1:8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.​

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.​

Revelation 22:13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.​

The final revelation: Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh...​

John 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.​

John 8:58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.​

HankD​

 

And God, Elohim, said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness, Gen. 1:26.

Quoting from Andrew Jukes' The Names of God in Holy Scripture:

In the footnotes, Jukes added:

Now all that is to say that when God, Elohim, made man in His image and likeness, He made them a plurality of persons, male and female. The man and woman came together in a "covenant relationship ratified by an oath," marriage, and they became responsible to one another by the obligation of that oath.

Christ said, that a man and woman who marry one another are no longer two, but "one flesh." He didn't say they would like one flesh, He say they would be one flesh. And yet we see two distinct persons in this one flesh. To me, the image that God stamped in marriage is the best earthly picture of the Trinity.

Jukes went on:

 

Whenever the doctrine of the Trinity is attacked, the deity of Christ is attacked.

The Incarnation is essential to the doctrine of the Trinity.

Without Jesus Christ (O Logos) become flesh (a mortal human being subject to death) there is no bridge between God and man, Elohim and Adam, between heaven and earth.

Genesis 28 (Jacob's Ladder)

11 And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep.
12 And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.
13 And, behold, the LORD stood above it, and said, I am the LORD God (YHVH-Elohim) of Abraham thy father, and the God of Isaac: the land whereon thou liest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed;
14 And thy seed shall be as the dust of the earth, and thou shalt spread abroad to the west, and to the east, and to the north, and to the south: and in thee and in thy seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed.​

John 1:51 And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.​

He Himself is the ladder into heaven.​

HankD​

 

I'm not sure how any christian can be alright with the Trinity being attacked and denied.

 

(Rom 5:1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

(Rom 5:2) By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

(Rom 5:3) And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience;

(Rom 5:4) And patience, experience; and experience, hope:

(Rom 5:5) And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

(Rom 5:6) For when we were yet without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly.

(Rom 5:7) For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: yet peradventure for a good man some would even dare to die.

(Rom 5:8) But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.


(Rom 15:4) For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the Scriptures might have hope.

(Rom 15:5) Now the God of patience and consolation grant you to be likeminded one toward another according to Christ Jesus:

(Rom 15:6) That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

(Rom 15:7) Wherefore receive ye one another, as Christ also received us to the glory of God.

 

and that makes it ok or something for a christian to consider those who deny God and Christ in the Trinity as being christians. I think not. If we as christians don't speak out against hearsay who will.

 

And what do you base your considerations on? Is it OK to judge someone’s heart and decide instantly that they are denying the Trinity instead of just inquiring toward the truth? Is it OK to become hostile to others because you might feel that the Trinity is being attacked by their questions? Or maybe it better to try and be patient, and understanding to their inquiries? There are different ways to speak out is all I’m saying as the comment you made about being “alright” appears to be addressed my way and judging me now.??? If your statement was made in general OK then, but if not…

 

Dear Benjamin,

I hope these responses have been helpful.

Donna is also trying to help in her own way.

You didn't make a statement as to where you yourself actually stood and her reaction is normal for orthodox Trinitarian Christians.


HankD

 

I'm not sure where your gettin any of this from, I have posted nothing like that. I have certainly not been hostile. There are those denying the exsistance of the Trinity, which is a denial of God Himself. You seem to see no problem with that.

 

The first questions need to be, does one affirm that the Father and the Son are both God? If so, then the philosophical method by which the relationship is explained is secondary and subject to some debate.

It is a fact that the matter has engaged some of the best minds in history. I myself am quite satisfied with the orthodox formulation. But I hardly think that an honest skepticism by one who is just starting the journey into this mystery is cause for alarm.

One may have the Spirit of Christ dwelling in him and yet be confused about a good many theological subjects. For instance, look at how many people on the BB disagree with me.

The important thing is to stick to the biblical data: God is one, Jesus is God, Jesus is not the Father. The philosophical interpretation is a whole nuther ball of wax.

 

This thread should probably be moved to the Other Christian Denominations section, since it was started by a non-Baptist.

 

HankD,

Yes, helpful, and I have the utmost respect and am always thankful for your input, and as a matter of fact I had copied your Biblical response and filed it.

To explain, I do come to issue against the treatment that bound received here as I relate having once stepped up to the plate engaging a group of Modalist (Oneness Pentecostals) that were successfully recruiting Christians left and right. When this was happening I felt the need to come here for help against their endless historical textual criticisms, but figured I would receive the same treatment that he/she received, I didn’t need that either, so and felt his/her pain.

I had got in over my head and had to do some serious prayerful soul searching and was quite shook up over the doubts they were attempting to plant about the authority of the Bible. The Holy Spirit guided me to keep the truth that God is able; He had and did preserve His Word, and in it was the truth, as He is Truth. It came down to the only defense they had was to deny the Word as Truth, hence my references to the lies of Satan.

Anyway, I stuck to the Bible and God’s promises and ability to keep His Word (Sola Scriptura) as the Holy Spirit had guided me and this took on a new, more powerful, meaning for me as I preached the truths of the gospel. If anyone thinks I get feisty around here, well, you’ll never seen this side of me as I dealt with the Modalists in their deprived cosmic conscience states for weeks.

All ended well with them getting shut down and even kicked off the board in their lies and I think God’s truths snatched several out of their hands; then after this the board was completely shut down to any more debates. I say all this as a statement that I do stand in an orthodox view on Trinity and do defend it vehemently when it comes down to it.

As for how normal I am; heck, I think I rarely get accused of being normal. But will say I couldn’t agree more with Pipedudes reply:

 

If you read the tread you will see this has already been addressed, and I would say "fairly" by a moderator. And personally, I am hoping for a positive response from bound, rather than a kick to the curb.

 

RE: Trinity

If somone has alreay used this scripture in this discussion, I am sorry. I was reading some of the highpoints and thought I would interject a scrpiture. Go to Genesis 1:26. God said let us make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness. That sounds like God and Jesus to me. The Holy Ghost would make up the third in the Trinity. So the Trinity is true. Jesus told his disciples that he would not leave them comfortless. He breathed on them and they received the Holy Ghost.