Are you also satisfied with not addressing most of what has been presented to you? I just don't see how you can be.
God bless.
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The Trinity
- Thread starter Martin Marprelate
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Are you also satisfied with not addressing most of what has been presented to you? I just don't see how you can be.
God bless.
You are satisfied, others are not.
You are satisfied, are you sure God will be? What if He is not? Are you willing to take that chance?
You are satisfied, but you are the only one here that has that view. Wouldn't that alone cause you to reconsider?
The birth and development of Jesus, the Christ, were nothing less than supernatural. Another factor to consider. But Mary called him "Emmanuel."
Mat 1:23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us. Something else to consider.
Consider these quotes.
From Weymouth Translation: 1912
(WNT) For "EVERY ONE, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."
--It is all in CAPS because it is a quote from the OT. The phrase "Name of the LORD" is the title of Jehovah. Here whosoever shall call upon Jesus/Jehovah shall be saved.
The same is true in Acts 2
Act 2:21 AND EVERY ONE WHO CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.'
Only OT quotes are capitalized. Those who call upon the name of "Jehovah" (Jesus) shall be saved.
Even in your KJV you would find, especially in your print Bible, that in the phrase:
Acts 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.
you can see "LORD" all in caps, thus referring to Jehovah. Look in your Bible, and not on-line.
The same is true here:
Act 15:17 IN ORDER THAT THE REST OF MANKIND MAY EARNESTLY SEEK THE LORD--EVEN ALL THE NATIONS WHICH ARE CALLED BY MY NAME,"
Act 15:18 SAYS THE LORD, WHO HAS BEEN MAKING THESE THINGS KNOWN FROM AGES LONG PAST.'
This is at the Jerusalem Council. It starts with vs.15:
Act 15:15 And this is in harmony with the language of the Prophets, which says:
The "prophet" referred to is Amos, and James is quoting Amos 9:11,12.
Every time the word "Lord" is used in those verses (15:17,18), they refer to Jehovah. But James is referring to Christ. Christ is the Jehovah of the OT. Those who call upon his name shall be saved. He is not simply the "son of God," but rather God Himself. This cannot be denied.
TrevorL
Member
Greetings again DHK,
I more or less decided to disengage or have a rest from this thread as we seemed to have stated our main differences. I have not answered all of Darrell’s quotations, or some of your previous quotations. Time was a factor, but also I felt that we are fairly entrenched by environment and the way we view much of the Scripture on this subject. For example you have raised the usage of two Bible words, God in the form of Emmanuel, and LORD or Jehovah, or as I prefer Yahweh.
Philippians 2:8-11 (KJV): 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Now if the Name given to Jesus is Yahweh, the questions that arise are:
1. Did Jesus have this Name before he was given it?
2. Why is it that when we bow our knee before Jesus, it will be “to the glory of God the Father"? Why does it not say, To the Glory of God the Son?
Consistent with my Post on an old Trinity thread, we have parallel statement in Acts 4 where salvation is now also by the Name of Jesus. I believe that Jesus not only now bears the Yahweh Name, but the name he was given at birth, Jesus, is also the development of the Yahweh Name.
Acts 4:9-12 (KJV): 9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
The above underlined do not really fit in with Trinitarian views.
Kind regards
Trevor
I more or less decided to disengage or have a rest from this thread as we seemed to have stated our main differences. I have not answered all of Darrell’s quotations, or some of your previous quotations. Time was a factor, but also I felt that we are fairly entrenched by environment and the way we view much of the Scripture on this subject. For example you have raised the usage of two Bible words, God in the form of Emmanuel, and LORD or Jehovah, or as I prefer Yahweh.
I certainly fall short of the Divine standard in all that I seek to do. I am quite content with the small numbers in my fellowship by comparison to the larger numbers in the Baptist fellowship. But the views I have been attempting to present have been established in our fellowship for over 150 years. It is not some aberration that I have developed and testing out on you as a big frog in a small pond. Also recently I have been reading about the early history of the Baptists in England. There is mention of the General Baptists and the Particular Baptists. It seems that many of the early General Baptists were Unitarian, but how many and how long this continued I have yet to determine. I assume the Calvinist Particular Baptist views predominate today.
Certainly supernatural, as God was the Father of Jesus, and Mary his mother – a view that is not really in agreement with the Trinitarian incarnation belief. Jesus was the embodiment of the Word, and as such and in many other ways “He was God with us”. I do not believe that he was God the Son, but the Son of God.
I have no difficulty in believing that Jesus now bears the Name Yahweh. I believe that when Jesus was exalted that this is the Name he was given in the following:
Philippians 2:8-11 (KJV): 8 And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. 9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Now if the Name given to Jesus is Yahweh, the questions that arise are:
1. Did Jesus have this Name before he was given it?
2. Why is it that when we bow our knee before Jesus, it will be “to the glory of God the Father"? Why does it not say, To the Glory of God the Son?
Consistent with my Post on an old Trinity thread, we have parallel statement in Acts 4 where salvation is now also by the Name of Jesus. I believe that Jesus not only now bears the Yahweh Name, but the name he was given at birth, Jesus, is also the development of the Yahweh Name.
Acts 4:9-12 (KJV): 9 If we this day be examined of the good deed done to the impotent man, by what means he is made whole; 10 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. 11 This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. 12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
The above underlined do not really fit in with Trinitarian views.
Kind regards
Trevor
On a side note just wanted to pass this along for consideration by other Trinitarians.
Luke 8:43-48
King James Version (KJV)
43 And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any,
44 Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched.
45 And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
46 And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.
47 And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately.
48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.
Anyone see the Lord standing in the role of Father to this woman? Or would you think this is just a general term of description, as used in regards to the daughters of Israel?
God bless.
Luke 8:43-48
King James Version (KJV)
43 And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any,
44 Came behind him, and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched.
45 And Jesus said, Who touched me? When all denied, Peter and they that were with him said, Master, the multitude throng thee and press thee, and sayest thou, Who touched me?
46 And Jesus said, Somebody hath touched me: for I perceive that virtue is gone out of me.
47 And when the woman saw that she was not hid, she came trembling, and falling down before him, she declared unto him before all the people for what cause she had touched him, and how she was healed immediately.
48 And he said unto her, Daughter, be of good comfort: thy faith hath made thee whole; go in peace.
Anyone see the Lord standing in the role of Father to this woman? Or would you think this is just a general term of description, as used in regards to the daughters of Israel?
God bless.
As with the other thousand proof text that declare the Holy Spirit, Jesus Christ and the Father are all individuals yet One God.
TrevorL
Member
Greetings again Darrell and steaver,
John 13:33 (KJV): Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
Galatians 4:19 (KJV): My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
1 John 2:1 (KJV): My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Also Hebrews when speaking of the many sons, who will be brought unto glory, they are described as Jesus’ brethren and also his children.
Hebrews 2:10-13 (KJV): 10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. 13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
Kind regards
Trevor
It is interesting that Jesus, Paul and John all describe the disciples as their “little children”.
John 13:33 (KJV): Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say to you.
Galatians 4:19 (KJV): My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you,
1 John 2:1 (KJV): My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
Also Hebrews when speaking of the many sons, who will be brought unto glory, they are described as Jesus’ brethren and also his children.
Hebrews 2:10-13 (KJV): 10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, 12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee. 13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
Kind regards
Trevor
One difference would be that the context is not necessarily the same. Christ was not a recognized leader of the general population as Paul and John are of their congregations. We have seen His teaching was perceived as an affront to that which the Jews viewed as orthodox.
And we never see Paul or John state "I am the Alpha and Omega, the First and the Last."
Have enjoyed talking with you Trevor, I am heading off for a new field and new antagonists, and just wanted to say good-bye. I may be back around at some point, as BB was one of the first forums I became familiar with when I found out there were all these people out there that liked to discuss Doctrine, lol, and used to be a forum I just popped into from time to time in between forums, but have spent quite a bit of time here this year.
I hope you will give some consideration to that which in our discussions you did not respond to, and perhaps, Lord willing, I should make it back here one day we can discuss them in further detail.
So keep at it, my friend, be diligent in study, and immerse yourself in the Word of God, and perhaps one day we will have the chance to pick each other's brains again, lol.
God bless.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
"Mighty God, Everlasting Father Prince of Peace" - titles for God the Son.
But Christ clearly directed His followers to pray to the Father and said He was not speaking his own words but rather the Words of the Father.
In Gethsemane Christ pleads with Father "take this cup from Me" yet 'not MY will but THY will be done".
So then as we see in Matt 28 - it is a triune Godhead.
God the Father,
God the Son,
God the Holy Spirit
One God in the three persons.
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TrevorL
Member
Greetings again Bob,
Kind regards
Trevor
A fair bit of water has flown under the bridge since you made your previous Post in this thread. Your last Post #3 Page 1 started as follows:
I had previously responded to John 8:58 in the Heaven or Hell at Death thread Post #44, but also in this thread I have discussed and stated my belief that Exodus 3:14 should be translated “I will be” or Tyndale’s “I wilbe” not “I AM”.
I have responded to John 10:30 in this thread, refer Posts # 43, 44, 127. I will not respond to your additional latest Post as it does not prove the Trinity..
Kind regards
Trevor
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Trevor - thank you for the welcome.
I looked at
#127 TrevorL, Oct 15, 2015 - and did not find a reference/response to John 10:30... possibly I missed it.
I looked at
#127 TrevorL, Oct 15, 2015 - and did not find a reference/response to John 10:30... possibly I missed it.
TrevorL
Member
Greetings again Bob,
I was interested to answer your quotation of John 10:30 because of the following. I attended the start of a SDA Seminar series on Daniel many years ago. The Church Pastor considered Daniel 1, and on the second night his wife who was also a Pastor (to my surprise and cultural shock) conducted Daniel 2. I slightly disrupted the meeting during the discussion afterwards by quoting Daniel 2:35,44 and Acts 3:19-21 to suggest that the 1000 years would be upon the earth.
A few weeks later on a holiday weekend the seminar was still conducted, but so that those who were away would not miss one of the Daniel segments, the subject chosen was the Trinity. The seminar leaflet used John 10:30 as one of the main supporting texts and in the discussion afterwards most voiced their agreement that this verse taught the Trinity. I suggested that it taught that Jesus was the Son of God, but I could only voice my belief and could not give a detailed answer from John 10:30-36.
I hoped to last the distance till the Daniel 8 seminar, as I was convinced that the 2300 years was from BC334-33 to AD 1967 as discussed with you on another thread. But I did not attend any further sessions of the seminar after the Trinity night for a number of reasons. Over the years my understanding of John 10:30-36 has grown and my Posts #43, 44 and 127 represent a summary of my present understanding of John 10:30-36. This passage does not teach the Trinity but shows that there is one God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Kind regards
Trevor
I checked and it is Post #127 on Page 7. In this particular Post John 10:30 is not directly mentioned, but it is a continuation of the discussion of Jesus’ answer in John 10:30-36 to the wrong assessment and accusation of the Jews relating to John 10:30. Part of Jesus’ answer was to quote Psalm 82 and Psalm 82 is discussed in Post #127. In other words an understanding of Psalm 82 will help to more fully appreciate Jesus’ answer to the wrong assessment and accusation of the Jews.
I was interested to answer your quotation of John 10:30 because of the following. I attended the start of a SDA Seminar series on Daniel many years ago. The Church Pastor considered Daniel 1, and on the second night his wife who was also a Pastor (to my surprise and cultural shock) conducted Daniel 2. I slightly disrupted the meeting during the discussion afterwards by quoting Daniel 2:35,44 and Acts 3:19-21 to suggest that the 1000 years would be upon the earth.
A few weeks later on a holiday weekend the seminar was still conducted, but so that those who were away would not miss one of the Daniel segments, the subject chosen was the Trinity. The seminar leaflet used John 10:30 as one of the main supporting texts and in the discussion afterwards most voiced their agreement that this verse taught the Trinity. I suggested that it taught that Jesus was the Son of God, but I could only voice my belief and could not give a detailed answer from John 10:30-36.
I hoped to last the distance till the Daniel 8 seminar, as I was convinced that the 2300 years was from BC334-33 to AD 1967 as discussed with you on another thread. But I did not attend any further sessions of the seminar after the Trinity night for a number of reasons. Over the years my understanding of John 10:30-36 has grown and my Posts #43, 44 and 127 represent a summary of my present understanding of John 10:30-36. This passage does not teach the Trinity but shows that there is one God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Kind regards
Trevor
Col 2:9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
In Christ dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily--a complete statement of the humanity and deity of Christ in this short verse.
When one reads through the book of Colossians he cannot fail to see the deity of Christ for Paul was writing against the heresy of the Gnostics who denied the deity and humanity of Christ.
Christ was and is in the flesh. In the flesh he is God incarnate. All the Godhead dwells in Him.
He is fully God and yet at the same time fully man. How can it be any other way?
In Christ dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily--a complete statement of the humanity and deity of Christ in this short verse.
When one reads through the book of Colossians he cannot fail to see the deity of Christ for Paul was writing against the heresy of the Gnostics who denied the deity and humanity of Christ.
Christ was and is in the flesh. In the flesh he is God incarnate. All the Godhead dwells in Him.
He is fully God and yet at the same time fully man. How can it be any other way?
TrevorL
Member
Greetings again DHK,
Acts 2:22 (KJV): Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Hebrews 2:14 (KJV): Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
1 John 4:1-3 (KJV): 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Kind regards
Trevor
I believe that God the Father (and not God the Son) was fully revealed in and through Jesus Christ. Jesus was one nature not two, as he came in the flesh, that is he was human nature.
Acts 2:22 (KJV): Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
Hebrews 2:14 (KJV): Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
1 John 4:1-3 (KJV): 1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. 2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: 3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.
Kind regards
Trevor
It is nice to hop and skip around the scripture after the manner of the J.W.'s.
Why not answer the post I gave you on Col.2:9?
TrevorL
Member
Greetings again DHK,
Ephesians 3:19 (KJV): And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
Note also that “complete” in Colossians 2:10 is a cognate word with “fulness” in v9.
Colossians 2:10 (NIV): and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.
John speaks also of this fulness:
John 1:14-16 (KJV): 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
I also equate “bodily” in Colossians 2:9 with “made flesh” in John 1:14. In other words God the Father was fully manifested in Jesus, the son of God, who was flesh and blood. There is no mention here of the “two natures” as taught by Trinitarians.
Kind regards
Trevor
Colossians 2:9-10 (KJV): 9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily. 10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
Ephesians 3:19 (KJV): And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.
Note also that “complete” in Colossians 2:10 is a cognate word with “fulness” in v9.
Colossians 2:10 (NIV): and you have been given fullness in Christ, who is the head over every power and authority.
John speaks also of this fulness:
John 1:14-16 (KJV): 14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. 15 John bare witness of him, and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me. 16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
I also equate “bodily” in Colossians 2:9 with “made flesh” in John 1:14. In other words God the Father was fully manifested in Jesus, the son of God, who was flesh and blood. There is no mention here of the “two natures” as taught by Trinitarians.
Kind regards
Trevor
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Verse 10 is simply the application of the truth stated in verse 9. The truth stated in verse 9 could be very well read like this:
For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives.
The full deity of Christ is in bodily form, which speaks of his perfect humanity. He never sinned. He was sinless. Here you have an expression which sums up his humanity and his deity in one succinct verse. He was flesh (bodily). Yet in him, Christ, all the fullness of the Godhead dwells. It can't be explained away.
One cannot equate, equivocate, compare, etc. He is deity in his humanity. It is an expression that cannot be denied.
TrevorL
Member
Greetings again DHK,
Kind regards
Trevor
Yes in Jesus is the fullness of the Deity. Yahweh, He who will become, created Jesus when he sent the Holy Spirit upon Mary and the Son of God was born. The child Jesus grew, and when he was revealed to Israel John records that they beheld his glory, as he was full of grace and truth, the fullness of the Deity in flesh. Here then was the Deity in the flesh, but after his resurrection he became the Deity in Spirit nature. He was not Divine nature until the resurrection.
Kind regards
Trevor
Your view is still thwarted. Even in dealing with Christ after the resurrection, the resurrection speaks of a resurrected body. He sits at the right hand of the throne of God as God. In his body dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. In Him is deity, that is in His flesh. He is deity--in his humanity and his divinity both in heaven and on earth. He never forsook his deity.
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