The trouble with Fundamentalism is...

[PASTOR MHG]

My apologies for not being able to articulate very well. I understand the history of fundamentalism and I completely agree with you. Maybe I am trying to say something that is not coming out right. Let me say it this way... My belief in freedom of thought stems from my core biblical beliefs... individual accountability and responsibility of the soul. This is a reality that has allowed me to arrive at the truth... I believe Truth (fundamentalist positions/biblical positions) is closely related to liberty. The truth shall make you free! The most dangerous place to be is where some outside source is dictating to you what to think. That is the irony of Liberalism is it not. They really are not free-thinkers, though they want you to think so, but actually have an agenda they are trying to force upon people. I believe it is no different in our theological realm. I hope this makes a little more since. Maybe not.

Look forward to your input JoJ.

Max

 

[John of Japan]

My apologies for not being able to articulate very well. I understand the history of fundamentalism and I completely agree with you. Maybe I am trying to say something that is not coming out right. Let me say it this way... My belief in freedom of thought stems from my core biblical beliefs... individual accountability and responsibility of the soul. This is a reality that has allowed me to arrive at the truth... I believe Truth (fundamentalist positions/biblical positions) is closely related to liberty. The truth shall make you free! The most dangerous place to be is where some outside source is dictating to you what to think. That is the irony of Liberalism is it not. They really are not free-thinkers, though they want you to think so, but actually have an agenda they are trying to force upon people. I believe it is no different in our theological realm. I hope this makes a little more since. Maybe not.

Look forward to your input JoJ.

Max

Okay, Max, that was well said!

God bless.

John

 

[PASTOR MHG]

Okay, Max, that was well said!

God bless.

John

Well, thank you for being patient with my blubbering...:laugh:

 

[4boys4joys]

In Defense of IBF's

Can I give you a list of 10 things I am mad about? lol

First I appreciate so many of your comments on the threads on Racial issues threads. But I would like to kindly ask you if we should follow that same spirit in other forums.

I would have hoped you would have said... can I give you a list of 10 things I disagree with. If we cannot love our brother whom we have seen than how can we love God. This was the message in some of the other theads about race, does not the same apply to differences in what church we attend or what Bible we use. I am not saying that you do not ultimately love others with different views. What I am saying is that maybe you give the same freedom to those who do not agree with all you hold true as you did to those who wish to marry regardless of race.

So I will ask this question of you and all who may want to answer it ? Is there a double standard in the way we look at IBF's in conparision to other beliefs and practices ? An IBF is not allowed to challenge some like you who is ABC. But if you challenge an IBF it is OK because they are legalistic or too right wing. That is only ones opinion and it does not take away the rights of an IBF to believe as they do. In turn it does not take away the right to have your view.

Is the debate between IBF's and being fundamental have to do with fundamentals of scripture or lifestyle ? Most comments made by those who are not IBF are about lifestyle choice. Modsty,association and the like. Yet a Christian who is not IBF will give more liberty to a Muslim to have there own views than an IBF.

Why can't we accept the fact that all of our, standards,lifestlye choices and the like may not be the same but that we do believe in salvation through faith,by the blood and grace of Christ. Not all IBF's try to impose how they live on others or are so focused on the outside that we have no relationship wiht Christ. Those IBF's who do have standards that some may find extreme,just may believe that this is what God's will is for them and not about living that way to show others what God's will is for them too.

I will be the first to say some IBF churches and members can pass judgement but why pass a broad judgment on those who attend those churches or those who may fall under the most commonly known characteristics of the IBF believers. I would not do this to some who is a part of a different denomination.

I would not say ohhhhh all of those ABC people are so liberal. I may say I do not believe that God would have me in that type of church because of what I believe but I would not resort to put a general slant on anyone's denomination or say what makes me mad about it.

IBF's have the same liberty as anyone else does here. It may make your blood boil,but in turn you are making some elses boil. Does an IBF have less of a right to have their blood boil because they are IBF ? No, an IBF has every right to have an opinion that is not that of some elses no matter how legalistic you may think it is- it is their right just the same.

If I have ever made it out to be that there is only one way to believe in any posts I apologize. There is only one way for me personally, but I do understand that others may not agree with me and I will try to have that attitude in future posts.

 

[tinytim]

4boys4joys... (BTW, I love that name!)
When I posted the "10 things" post, I was jokin...
That was about 3 months ago, and If I remember right, there were things going on on other threads... and it was an inside joke that day...
NO... I am not mad at fundamentalists... I am one!!! (shhhhh... don't tell anyone though!!! lol)
I grew up IFB... traditional IFB... before the UFOs, (as we call them around here... ULtra Fundamental ONlies took over the movement.)

I obviously don't agree with the IFBs today, but I will stand side by side them defending their right to believe what they want to... as long as it is not sin.

A couple months ago, I was even defending Schaap (Pastor of FBC Hammond) And we are way off in some of our beliefs.. but he was right in what he said in a sermon he preached, and I defended him..

There are some great IFBs on here that I may disagree with some of their practices, but the fundamentals we agree with...

One IFB that stands by her beliefs, and does it graciously is Bapmom.
We disagree over the pants issue, but she doesn't look down on me because I think it is ok for a woman to wear them to church...

AND I don't look down on her...

Here is another post of mine on this thread:

Why is it that when we hear fundamentalism, we automatically think of IFBs? Why not COG, or Pentecostalism? Fundamentalism started with the presbrytarians...(sp?)

Is it because the IFBs have been the loudest?

I consider myself fundamental.. I hold to all the fundamentals, and will fight for them... And I am ABC/USA.

I think one problem with fundamentalism is being addressed here right now... The IFBs (whatever fellowship) do not own the fundamentals..

One problem is the image that people have... It has become distorted from where it was even 30 yrs ago.

So that today when someone hears the word "fundamentalist" they either think of:

1) IFBs.

or

2) Islam

I mean, take me for instance.. who here associates ABC/USA churches with fundamentalism... but when you get to know some ABC churches, you will realize there are many of us who stand on the fundamentals... Actually, I know that all in the WVBC do!

Fundamentalism needs some work done on the public relations side of things.. to get it's good image back.

I don't mind the differences of opinion, but when someone thinks they are more Godly because they believe something different (besides the fundamentals) than others do... I have a problem with that...

I feel as long as we agree on the traditional fundamentals of the faith, as put down in the publication "the fundamentals" there is always room for disagreement...

Here are the basics...
Jesus is God
The Bible is God's word
Jesus lived a sinless life
He died an atoning death
He rose physically and ascended to Heaven
He is coming back again.
Salvation is by Grace through faith not of works..

That about covers everything.
We can disagree on versions.. but as long as we believe the Bible and not the Koran is God's word... no problem..
And we can disagree concerning Calvanism and Arminianism (which I am neither) But as long as we agree we can't get to Heaven based on our works... no problem
We can disagree over pretrib, midtrib, no trib... or premill, postmill, or amill But as long as we agree that He is coming back... no problem...

Another thing I feel strongly about is the autonomy of the church.
Being ABC that is a biggie! lol
And even if a church is teaching something in left field, I will not condemn them... they have that right to teach whatever IN THEIR CHURCH, But when they bring stuff here.. I have a right to my opinion as they do theirs....

BTW, I am glad you are here too.. I read that in another thread, and wanted to welcome you also.

I look forward to debating and fellowshipping with you...
Also... I don't take stuff personally...

happy posting!

 

[4boys4joys]

Thank You

Thanks tim for the reply. My screen name gets lots of compliments, but is a reflection of how my boys have changed my life, so thanks.

Seeing that it was a joke does put it in a different light. I know you are not mad at fundamentalists.

I guess I should have done a better job clarifying what I was asking you and what I was stating as a general statement about the topic.

I also feel that no one has the right to feel better than someone because of what they believe. I pray I do not do that. Some will take it wrong no matter what and that is something all believers deal with.

I was addressing the thread in general once I got past the part about showing equal grace in all subjects.I would have never asked if I knew it was a joke in the first place. I tried to ask the question to all who would ask,I hope you saw that.

I also hope some will see that there is difference between Baptist distinctives and the fundamentals of the faith. Some would agree you have to believe one to believe the other or they are hand in hand. That is not how I see it but again JMO.

Hope we are all clear here and thanks for your post.

 

[Maestroh]

The Biggest Problem

Is the confusing of one's own prejudices with a biblical command.

Can anybody show me where the Bible explicitly says anything close to 'rock 'n' roll is evil?'

Can anybody show me where one is supposed to separate from others on the basis of Greek text preference?

This list is long and undistinguished in its usage as a battering ram of bigotry.

 

[tinytim]

One of the biggest problems I have had to overcome is cultural preferences vs what the Bible actually says...

For instance:
Where I grew up, dancing in worship is absolutely forbidden.
But when we have sent mission trips to South American cultures, and they come back with the slides and presentations... the churches there have liturgical dance... That is how they worship...

While sitting in the pew watching these clips, and slides I feel uncomfortable...why?

Cultural influences that I can't shake.

Nothing in the Bible states it is a sin... and the people are worshipping, and to tell you the truth are probably closer to God than us in our AC, pew padded, churches. They know what it means to have to depend on God daily.. and they are so thankful, they express their worship through dance...

This is just one instance... and I am sure if I went on mission trip, there would be others...

The problem is, we grew up in a closed society, and as techonology advances, we are beginning to see there are many ways Christians worship...

We should thank God for the diversity... not condemn each other.

 

[av1611jim]

Tim;
I agree with you in substance. But where we go off the deep end ("we"; meaning American christianity in general) is when we use the fact of worldwide cultrual diversity to justify what is questionable within our own sphere of tradition. Like your "worship dance" illustration. It has never been a part of our 'culture' to worship by dancing. To bring what is commonplace in one culture into what is unheard of in another is naive at best and unwise at least.

Another illustration comes to mind. In some cultures, it is common for the men to walk around in nothing more than a loincloth. To attempt to bring that cultural difference into our own culture to justify running around mostly nekkid is unwise, uncouth and impractical.

A little bit of discernment when integrating cultural differences into "worship" styles will go a long way towards diffusing much of the contention among us, don't you think?

Just because God in His wisdom has allowed a multitude of worldwide diversity should not automatically justify our own desire for "something different" to include those cultures into our own. God had something to say to Israel about intermingling cultures did He not?

 

[ReformedBaptist]

First I am getting people to think and discuss these topics,second I am working on a couple of books myself to be out front.

By some of the finer minds I refer to the professors in Independant Fundamental Bible Baptist colleges and seminaries writing commentaries,books on Bible Doctrine, Books on Theology or Theoligical studies...i.e..hermeneutics,apologetics,social customs in Bible times.:godisgood:

That's good to hear brother. (sorry, late to thread). Please, please, please make them a good work of scholarship. I received a Baptist History book written by an IFB guy and it was the most pathetic piece of scholarship I have ever seen. I could have written better, and that's not saying much!