The trouble with this verse

[Thinkingstuff]

I find this verse challenging and wondered what people thought about it or how they interpret it. But In today's world there are a lot of people speaking about Jesus yet there seems to be issues which put me in mind of this verse

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

Obviously people doing miracles in Jesus name will think they are doing the will of the Father in heaven but will find out they are not. This is a challenging verse what do you think about it?

 

[Marcia]

I think it's always essential to look at the context of any remark.

15"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves.

16"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20"So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' 23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Jesus is talking about false prophets; I think we could also apply this to false teachers/preachers.

The false prophets/teachers will plead that they prophesied, cast out demons, and did miracles in Jesus' name but that will be to avail.

I can think of some today who might fit this category: Oneness teachers, for one. Word of Faith for another. I can think of even specific people who are famous and have made false prophecies and claim to heal people but their doctrine is heretical.

 

[Pastor Larry]

What's the challenge? In every age there have been frauds. That's what Jesus is saying ... It is something we would do well to remember around here. Not everyone who claims to be a follower of Christ actually is.

 

[thegospelgeek]

That's one of my favorite passages of scripture. I love to contrast it with Matt. 25's sheep and goats. In one people are saying "Didn't I do good works" and the other the sheep say "When did we do this"

A few of quick points...

1. Not all miracles are from God. Notice the Lord never said You didn't do miracles, but he said i never knew you.

2. Works won't save.

3. Not everyone who claims Jesus name is one of his children. Many are decieved. I realize this almost every time I discuss salvation with people.

Contrast with Matt 25 and we see that while works don't save. They happen. The true christian can't help but have them. They may not be even noticed. This also goes along with james writtings on works as well as the parable of the sower and Christ Vine and branches from John 15

 

[thegospelgeek]

Thinking...

I got all excited and didn't address the OP. Sorry.

What is it that you find challenging? I have always found this one very clear. But I know I have found verses challenging and discovered that others understood it well.

Do you have a specific question about it?

 

[webdog]

The first thing that popped into my mind when I read the OP was Pharaoh's magicians duplicating many of God's miracles through Moses. Since satan appears as an angel of light, many miracles that seem to be from Him parallel to those of Pharaoh's magicians. Something along this line are so called stigmata's

 

[trustitl]

The first thing that came to my mind is some very "conservative" homeschool families. They are very cleaned up on the outside but the Spirit of God is not there.

By the way, I am a "conservative" homeschool Dad.

Gal. 3:5 "He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"

I think this verse includes the meaning of dunamis found in II Tim. 1:7 "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."
Other greek words could have been chosen were Paul thinking of wonders (teras) and signs (semeion).

We see people around us and they appear to have everything together and are supposedly "great christian families". However, many are merely being made perfect in the flesh and may sadly here those dreaded words you quoted from Jesus.

 

[Marcia]

The first thing that popped into my mind when I read the OP was Pharaoh's magicians duplicating many of God's miracles through Moses. Since satan appears as an angel of light, many miracles that seem to be from Him parallel to those of Pharaoh's magicians. Something along this line are so called stigmata's

I agree. It's interesting that the ability to counterfeit is limited, though. The magicians duplicated the first 2 plagues but could not duplicate the 3rd. They told Pharaoh that it was "the finger of God."

Also, we see "false miracles" in Revelation done by the false prophet, I believe.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

What's the challenge? In every age there have been frauds. That's what Jesus is saying ... It is something we would do well to remember around here. Not everyone who claims to be a follower of Christ actually is.

The self deception aspect of it bothers me. We can point out obvious decievers like the LDS (Yet their fruit is often better than ours). But what about those with in our pews or (of more consern) with in our pulpits? And the challenge of it is "He who does my fathers will". So, obviously the miracle workers believe they are "doing the fathers will" and can point to the results of their works for God. Many (just as an example Benny Hinn btw another extreme) claim to believe in Jesus (if you reference the verse saying "this is the will of God that you believe in the one he sent") and operate their charaties to help those in need. However, I question that these may be the wolves in sheeps cloathing. And obviously believing in Jesus requires obedience to his will which involves (by necessity) certain works or our faith is just cerebral. And believing in Jesus requires doing what he says. Not just having a tea party with him. What bothers me about it is not the overt obvious but the subtlety. Like people who gossip in our churches, or disgruntled people who don't like something and just create another church. How many of these are wolves in sheep clothing. How many of these are self deceived. some thoughts here.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

The first thing that came to my mind is some very "conservative" homeschool families. They are very cleaned up on the outside but the Spirit of God is not there.

By the way, I am a "conservative" homeschool Dad.

Gal. 3:5 "He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?"

I think this verse includes the meaning of dunamis found in II Tim. 1:7 "For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind."
Other greek words could have been chosen were Paul thinking of wonders (teras) and signs (semeion).

We see people around us and they appear to have everything together and are supposedly "great christian families". However, many are merely being made perfect in the flesh and may sadly here those dreaded words you quoted from Jesus.

I'm not sure what you're saying here. I'm a conservative homeschooler and my children really have a great faith which ministers to me everyday. I know there are homeschoolers that are just that only providing their children the bare minimum but I don't quite know what that has to do with the topic unless you're saying they're self decieved.

 

[thegospelgeek]

The self deception aspect of it bothers me. We can point out obvious decievers like the LDS (Yet their fruit is often better than ours). But what about those with in our pews or (of more consern) with in our pulpits? And the challenge of it is "He who does my fathers will". So, obviously the miracle workers believe they are "doing the fathers will" and can point to the results of their works for God. Many (just as an example Benny Hinn btw another extreme) claim to believe in Jesus (if you reference the verse saying "this is the will of God that you believe in the one he sent") and operate their charaties to help those in need. However, I question that these may be the wolves in sheeps cloathing. And obviously believing in Jesus requires obedience to his will which involves (by necessity) certain works or our faith is just cerebral. And believing in Jesus requires doing what he says. Not just having a tea party with him. What bothers me about it is not the overt obvious but the subtlety. Like people who gossip in our churches, or disgruntled people who don't like something and just create another church. How many of these are wolves in sheep clothing. How many of these are self deceived. some thoughts here.

Good questions! Some of these folks who gossip and such are just spiritually immature, others are intentionally creating strife. How can you tell them apart? Time will reveal. Jesus said that we can tell his disciples by their love for one another. Some folks just don't have any love. BUt you must be careful discerning them. Time will tell.

The problem is that too often we put these people in leadership positions because we are so desperate for workers. We need someone to teach that SS class and they voluntee so now we have one who is either immature, or unsaved, teaching our children. How about we just wait till God gives us a worker before we fill the position?

I worry more about the spiritually proud. It seams some make a declaration of faith, but everytime they open their mouth all you here is how they don't drink, don't do this, don't do that. The fact is they don't do anything. They don't love. They don't show compassion. They don't show faith or humbleness. No servanthood at all. Is their faith in Christ or in their self righteousness?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Good questions! Some of these folks who gossip and such are just spiritually immature, others are intentionally creating strife. How can you tell them apart? Time will reveal. Jesus said that we can tell his disciples by their love for one another. Some folks just don't have any love. BUt you must be careful discerning them. Time will tell.

The problem is that too often we put these people in leadership positions because we are so desperate for workers. We need someone to teach that SS class and they voluntee so now we have one who is either immature, or unsaved, teaching our children. How about we just wait till God gives us a worker before we fill the position?

I worry more about the spiritually proud. It seams some make a declaration of faith, but everytime they open their mouth all you here is how they don't drink, don't do this, don't do that. The fact is they don't do anything. They don't love. They don't show compassion. They don't show faith or humbleness. No servanthood at all. Is their faith in Christ or in their self righteousness?

Hey wait, I don't smoke, drink, or chew or go with women who do! :laugh:

 

[thegospelgeek]

Hey wait, I don't smoke, drink, or chew or go with women who do! :laugh:

Ahh... but what about movies????

and dancing?

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Ahh... but what about movies????

and dancing?

Ahh..uh... umm. (clears throat) I watch them? And I haven't Danced since I was in my 20's. Primarily because I'm bad at it.


(speaking fast) Am I going to hell in a handbag?

 

[trustitl]

I'm not sure what you're saying here. I'm a conservative homeschooler and my children really have a great faith which ministers to me everyday. I know there are homeschoolers that are just that only providing their children the bare minimum but I don't quite know what that has to do with the topic unless you're saying they're self decieved.

Self deceived is what I was getting at.

 

[Marcia]

The self deception aspect of it bothers me. We can point out obvious decievers like the LDS (Yet their fruit is often better than ours). But what about those with in our pews or (of more consern) with in our pulpits? And the challenge of it is "He who does my fathers will". So, obviously the miracle workers believe they are "doing the fathers will" and can point to the results of their works for God. Many (just as an example Benny Hinn btw another extreme) claim to believe in Jesus (if you reference the verse saying "this is the will of God that you believe in the one he sent") and operate their charaties to help those in need. However, I question that these may be the wolves in sheeps cloathing. And obviously believing in Jesus requires obedience to his will which involves (by necessity) certain works or our faith is just cerebral. And believing in Jesus requires doing what he says. Not just having a tea party with him. What bothers me about it is not the overt obvious but the subtlety. Like people who gossip in our churches, or disgruntled people who don't like something and just create another church. How many of these are wolves in sheep clothing. How many of these are self deceived. some thoughts here.

The passage is about false prophets/teachers, not believers in the pews who may not be believers.

If one is preaching false doctrine (really bad stuff that is clearly against the Bible), it doesn't matter how many charities they help or start.

As for people who seem to be believers but who are not, I think Jesus addresses them in Matt 13 as the tares:

24Jesus presented another parable to them, saying, "The kingdom of heaven may be compared to a man who sowed good seed in his field.

25"But while his men were sleeping, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went away.
26"But when the wheat sprouted and bore grain, then the tares became evident also.
27"The slaves of the landowner came and said to him, 'Sir, did you not sow good seed in your field? How then does it have tares?'
28"And he said to them, 'An enemy has done this!' The slaves said to him, 'Do you want us, then, to go and gather them up?'
29"But he said, 'No; for while you are gathering up the tares, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30'Allow both to grow together until the harvest; and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather up the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them up; but gather the wheat into my barn."'

There are disagreements on this passage, however. But that's another topic for another thread on another day.

 

[EdSutton]

Hey wait, I don't smoke, drink, or chew or go with women who do! :laugh:

And why you can't find no girlfriend, neither.

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif] [/FONT]

Ed

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Thinkingstuff: find this verse challenging and wondered what people thought about it or how they interpret it. But In today's world there are a lot of people speaking about Jesus yet there seems to be issues which put me in mind of this verse
Quote:
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'


Obviously people doing miracles in Jesus name will think they are doing the will of the Father in heaven but will find out they are not. This is a challenging verse what do you think about it?

HP: Deception is what it is, i.e., deception. Can you imagine even for a minute the depths of deception this verse depicts? To stand before a Holy and Just God on the day of judgment, not one, not two or a few, but MANY will stand believing they should have rights to their inheritance, trying to convince God Himself of their hope of eternal life! Now they were obviously fully convinced that they were right with God to stand before God and try to gain entrance. Just the same, the confidence they had, the security of the hope they had was found to be faulty and based on faulty assurance.

A simple answer to this verse leaves far too much in question. What I would like to know if in fact deception is a possibility for any or all of us and why. Does the possibility that one of us could be of that ‘many’ spoken of? What can we do in the here and now to prevent us from being deceived? How can one be certain that their hope is not a false hope and their assurance not in reality a false assurance? Is faith in ones faith a solid and safe hope to stand on? What place if any does our conscience play in our assurance of our final standing before God? Scripture certainly has somewhat to say about this subject. What do you think? How is one directed to make their calling and election certain?

 

[Alive in Christ]

ThinkingStuff,

"I find this verse challenging and wondered what people thought about it or how they interpret it. But In today's world there are a lot of people speaking about Jesus yet there seems to be issues which put me in mind of this verse


Quote:
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'



Obviously people doing miracles in Jesus name will think they are doing the will of the Father in heaven but will find out they are not. This is a challenging verse what do you think about it?"

There are lots of people out there who by *all outward appearences* are christians, and who *appear* to be in ministering in the name of Christ.

Some of them can be found in the wee hours of the night on some cable channel *seeming* to be performing miracles and healing people.

Robert Tilton
W.V. Grant
Peter Poppoff
*Master Prophet* Bernard Jordan
*Pastor* Kerney Thomas

Etc, etc etc.

These people are phonies and con men who are engaging in "get rich quick" schemes, manipulating people to send them lots and lots or money.

Phony *Prophecies*, phony *revelations", phony *miracles*, etc etc. And they do it all "in Jesus name".

3 of those 5 have been exposed, and the others will in time.


These people simply never were children of God.


:godisgood:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

AliveinChrist: These people are phonies and con men who are engaging in "get rich quick" schemes, manipulating people to send them lots and lots or money.

HP: First, I do not believe it is in keeping with the rules of this board to not only question the salvation of others, but especially to flat count them out of the Kingdom. None of us are God. From what I understand that is simply not the purpose of this list. Possibly a moderator could enlighten us as to how the rules apply to such remarks.

Your remarks appears to me to be a very narrow interpretation of this verse. Do you suppose that there might possibly be some what we might call, ‘normal professors’ within that numbers of deceived?

AliveinChrist: These people simply never were children of God.

HP: What does that matter? They certainly were fully convinced they were saved otherwise they would not have the boldness to stand before God as they obvious will trying to convince God that they know Him. Does the possibility exist that any of us could be of that number of the deceived? Is our only assurance today based on our faith in our faith? What solid evidence can one point to in their life that will make their calling and election certain?
2Pe 1:10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: