The trouble with this verse

[Marcia]

HP: First, I do not believe it is in keeping with the rules of this board to not only question the salvation of others, but especially to flat count them out of the Kingdom. None of us are God. From what I understand that is simply not the purpose of this list. Possibly a moderator could enlighten us as to how the rules apply to such remarks.

HP, I know you are addressing Alive in Christ, but it is not against the rules, as far as I know, to speak against public teachers who are teaching heresies and question their salvation. It is against the rules to question the salvation of another poster.

When a teacher claiming to be a Christian teaches flat out heresies that deny essentials of the faith, it is not only proper but biblical to warn others against such teachings.

Does the possibility exist that any of us could be of that number of the deceived? Is our only assurance today based on our faith in our faith? What solid evidence can one point to in their life that will make their calling and election certain?

I do believe we can know we are going to heaven. Our assurance is based on what the Bible tells us and on the testimony of the Holy Spirit.

but these have been written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing you may have life in His name. John 20:31

These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, so that you may know that you have eternal life. 1 John 5:13

And through the testimony of the indwelling Holy Spirit:
The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, Rom. 8:16

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, Rom. 8:16

HP: These are indeed great passages of assurance, but my question would be, can one hold such an assurance, and does the Holy Spirit testify to our hearts such an assurance of our final standing before Him, when our conscience clearly condemns us?

 

[Alive in Christ]

HP,

"These are indeed great passages of assurance, but my question would be, can one hold such an assurance, and does the Holy Spirit testify to our hearts such an assurance of our final standing before Him, when our conscience clearly condemns us?"

Marcia can probably respond more adequetly than I can, but I can say that the scriptures make clear that our security is not based upon the trustworthiness of our conscience, but rather on the trustworthiness of Gods word, promise and faithfullness.

God says, concerning His care for us and our security, that He will never leave us nor forsake us. He says that of all who come to Him, He will lose none.

"33 Who shall bring a charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies.

34 Who is he who condemns? It is Christ who died, and furthermore is also risen, who is even at the right hand of God, who also makes intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? Shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written:


“ For Your sake we are killed all day long;
We are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”[a]

37 Yet in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him who loved us.

38 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, 39 nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord."

:godisgood:

 

[Thinkingstuff]

And why you can't find no girlfriend, neither.

[FONT=verdana,sans-serif] [/FONT]

Ed

Ah, thats what my problem was!!!

 

[Marcia]

HP: These are indeed great passages of assurance, but my question would be, can one hold such an assurance, and does the Holy Spirit testify to our hearts such an assurance of our final standing before Him, when our conscience clearly condemns us?

I am not sure of what you are asking. My conscience does not condemn me because I know I am saved and forgiven. If someone thinks their conscience is condemning them, either they are not saved or they don't understand that we have assurance of salvation through faith in Christ.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia, is 1John written to believers or non-believers?

 

[Marcia]

Marcia, is 1John written to believers or non-believers?

I think you should start a thread on that - this is wildly off topic.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: I think you should start a thread on that - this is wildly off topic.

HP: I think not. There are other Scriptures that relate directly to the OP and the meaning and application of the verse in question, some of which are found in 1John. I simply was preparing to make my point after making certain we both agree that 1John was indeed written to believers and that the admonition stated there is for the benefit of believers.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: My conscience does not condemn me because I know I am saved and forgiven.

HP: How does your statement here line up with the following passage?

1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 ¶ For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Can you honestly say that your conscience, via the Holy Spirit, does not condemn you when you sin? How can one say ‘I have confidence in my relationship with God while in the active commission of sin.’? Can one have a right relationship with God without loving God? How does that line up with these verses? 1Jo 2:3 ¶ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Lu 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Is not our assurance, according to these verses clearly based on the witness of the Spirit as testified by a clear conscience, testifying of obedience to God and His commandments? Can one say they love God and yet be actively committing sin, and that without any condemnation, again, according to the Word of God?

 

[ray Marshall]

I find this verse challenging and wondered what people thought about it or how they interpret it. But In today's world there are a lot of people speaking about Jesus yet there seems to be issues which put me in mind of this verse



Obviously people doing miracles in Jesus name will think they are doing the will of the Father in heaven but will find out they are not. This is a challenging verse what do you think about it?

It means just what it says is my opinion.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

RM: It means just what it says is my opinion.

HP: Ray, the question that needs to be addressed is, to whom is it addressing? Could it be seen as a warning to you or I or believers in general? Is deception a real possibility for any or all of us?

 

[Marcia]

HP: How does your statement here line up with the following passage?

1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20 ¶ For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things.
21 Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 ¶ And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Can you honestly say that your conscience, via the Holy Spirit, does not condemn you when you sin?

Yes, I can say that. My conscience does not condemn me, but convicts me. Big difference! Before I was a believer, I was not convicted at all except when I did things I had been taught were wrong, and event then, I was able to justify my action or rationalize it. The feeling of conviction went away for most of these actions.

As a believer, I am convicted when I sin, but that is not condemnation.

"Now there is no condemnation for those in Chirst Jesus." Roman 8.1

 

[Marcia]

How can one say ‘I have confidence in my relationship with God while in the active commission of sin.’? Can one have a right relationship with God without loving God? How does that line up with these verses? 1Jo 2:3 ¶ And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Lu 16:13 No servant can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Is not our assurance, according to these verses clearly based on the witness of the Spirit as testified by a clear conscience, testifying of obedience to God and His commandments? Can one say they love God and yet be actively committing sin, and that without any condemnation, again, according to the Word of God?

I believe those verses you refer to are speaking of feeling conviction. Yes, believers should feel conviction and should feel guilt when they sin. I think the word "condemnation" here is not what I equate with in Rom. 8, which is condemnation without forgiveness.

However, we can feel convicted and guilty without it challenging our salvation.

If a believer is actively engaging in sin and refuses to repent, that is another matter. Conviction should bring repentance.

 

[Marcia]

HP: Ray, the question that needs to be addressed is, to whom is it addressing? Could it be seen as a warning to you or I or believers in general? Is deception a real possibility for any or all of us?

I do not think Matt 7 is a warning to believers, otherwise, it would be saying that you can lose your salvation.

It is a statement that reveals there are false teachers who appear to be believers but are not. Please do not leave out the context: Jesus is speaking of false prophets/teachers here.

It is being unjust to the text to wrench verses out of the context!

15"Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'

The context answers the OP. This is not about believers. Jesus casts them out; they are false prophets.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: Now there is no condemnation for those in Chirst Jesus." Roman 8.1

HP: Why do you fail to quote the verse in its entirety? The last half qualifies the first half that you quote, does it not?

Marcia: Yes, I can say that. My conscience does not condemn me, but convicts me. Big difference! Before I was a believer, I was not convicted at all except when I did things I had been taught were wrong, and event then, I was able to justify my action or rationalize it. The feeling of conviction went away for most of these actions.

HP: Scripture testifies differently Marcia. Even the heathen know intuitively some things as wrong. Nature even teaches some things that are wrong and as such should not be indulged in. For you to make the statement you make is paramount to saying that you had no conscience prior to becoming saved. Again, taught or not taught, Scripture states all have light of right and wrong to some degree or another. Just because one can learn to act ‘as if though’ one has no conscience, does not negate the fact that they have had and do now have a conscience.

I believe you are trying to draw a distinction between conviction and condemnation that is unwarranted in the case of a conscience testifying of sin. I see absolutely no Scriptural support mentioned that would support such a distinction neither do I see any other source of evidence that would attest to it.

Tell us in plain words with support from reason, matters of fact, or immutable justice, evidence that would make the case as you say it is so.

 

[Marcia]

HP: Why do you fail to quote the verse in its entirety? The last half qualifies the first half that you quote, does it not?

What???

HP: Scripture testifies differently Marcia. Even the heathen know intuitively some things as wrong. Nature even teaches some things that are wrong and as such should not be indulged in. For you to make the statement you make is paramount to saying that you had no conscience prior to becoming saved.

I did not say that. Read again what I wrote. I said that I was convicted on some things but ignored some of it and rationalized it. It is entirely possible - indeed, the world is doing it right now - to ignore the conviction of conscience and have a calloused conscience. Also, our conscience, while it tells us there is right and wrong, is not perfect. It merely reflects the fact that there is a right and wrong, so everyone is accountable and cannot deny such.

I believe you are trying to draw a distinction between conviction and condemnation that is unwarranted in the case of a conscience testifying of sin. I see absolutely no Scriptural support mentioned that would support such a distinction neither do I see any other source of evidence that would attest to it.

Well, then it is a semantics issue. When the HS convicts a believer, it is not to have the believer think he/she can lose his/her salvation, unless you are one who thinks that is true. I do not.

You are ignoring that this verse is about false prophets, not believers.


Tell us in plain words with support from reason, matters of fact, or immutable justice, evidence that would make the case as you say it is so

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim

HP: Why do you fail to quote the verse in its entirety? The last half qualifies the first half that you quote, does it not?

Marcia: What???

HP: Why play dumb?

 

[Marcia]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim

HP: Why do you fail to quote the verse in its entirety? The last half qualifies the first half that you quote, does it not?



HP: Why play dumb?

Would you just be straightforward? What do you mean about quoting the verse "is in its entirety?" I quoted from memory and left out "those who are" because my computer was shutting down. This is why I had 2 posts in reply to yours.

1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus

That is the entirely of Rom. 8.1, which I quoted from memory.

 

[Marcia]

HP, you are still ignoring the fact of what Matt 7 is addressing: false prophets.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia, What is so sad is that you might not of been playing dumb and I would apologize for that if such was the actual case. The problem is that many modern translations are not true to the Word of God and omit the last half of verse one. Here is the verse from the mouth of the Lord. Ro 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I believe that little else has been done that serves a greater detriment to the truth within the body of Christ than the proliferation of false translations of the Word of God. Believe as you will and I will do the same. Hold to whatever one you so desire but we shall see in the end which ones are, and which ones are not, the Word of God.

As for me, give me the KJV. God has attested to my heart that it is a trustworthy translation that I can stake my life on. I cannot say the same for any other. Again, believe as you will.