The trouble with this verse

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ED: a: The KJVO crowd will not refer to the Modern Versions as "perversions," "satanic," "devil's bibles," etc...nor call those that use them "Bible correctors," "Bible doubters," etc.</font>

HP: Let’s me off the hook. I am not a KJVO, although I use the KJV. Ed, if name calling is forbidden, so is calling another KJVO.:smilewinkgrin:

I have numerous versions available at my finger tips and do refer to them on occasion. That does NOT imply that some verses in other versions are not a perversion of the truth, for they by necessity must be. Two versions cannot say completely different things and one not be a perversion. You make up your mind which one is correct and which one is in error and I will do the same. The Spirit of God witnesses to my spirit with utmost clarity that the KJV of Romans 8 is indeed the correct rendering of the text, and the so-called versions that leave out the last half are indeed perversions of God’s Word in this particular verse. Again, believe as you want to and both of us will give an account before God for the positions we took. One can certainly stand before God and tell Him that the last half was not His Words. I believe those that do so will find themselves to have been ‘believers in deception’ concerning that passage on that day.

 

[DHK]

HP: Let’s me off the hook. I am not a KJVO, although I use the KJV. Ed, if name calling is forbidden, so is calling another KJVO.:smilewinkgrin:

Two versions cannot say completely different things and one not be a perversion. You make up your mind which one is correct and which one is in error and I will do the same. The Spirit of God witnesses to my spirit with utmost clarity that the KJV of Romans 8 is indeed the correct rendering of the text, and the so-called versions that leave out the last half are indeed perversions of God’s Word in this particular verse.

On this board you may have that "preference" or even that "conviction." Please do not say that the Holy Spirit bears witness with your spirit that the KJV is the correct rendering of the text. You have just implied that all who believe otherwise are not led of the Holy Spirit, or do not even have the Spirit of God. Such insinuations are wrong and are against the BB rules. The Spirit of God did not bear witness with your Spirit that the KJV was correct. You came to that conclusion on your own. That may be your conviction. But you cannot force it on others with "I am holier than thou because I have the Holy Spirit and you don't" language. That is wrong, arrogant, and against the rules.

 

[DHK]

HP: Fruit….. like lying and sinning everyday if one listens to you long enough to hear your complete story and the reality of what you really believe.

Why not quote all of what I said?
Do you have a problem with what I really said?

"Christianity is not a religion of living good, of works. It is a faith, a relationship with Jesus Christ based on doctrine."

That is what I said. Do you have a relationship with Jesus Christ based on the doctrine of the gospel, HP? If not why not? If you do, then why are you upset at what I said?

 

[EdSutton]

HP: Let’s me off the hook. I am not a KJVO, although I use the KJV. Ed, if name calling is forbidden, so is calling another KJVO.:smilewinkgrin:

I have numerous versions available at my finger tips and do refer to them on occasion. That does NOT imply that some verses in other versions are not a perversion of the truth, for they by necessity must be. Two versions cannot say completely different things and one not be a perversion. You make up your mind which one is correct and which one is in error and I will do the same. The Spirit of God witnesses to my spirit with utmost clarity that the KJV of Romans 8 is indeed the correct rendering of the text, and the so-called versions that leave out the last half are indeed perversions of God’s Word in this particular verse. Again, believe as you want to and both of us will give an account before God for the positions we took. One can certainly stand before God and tell Him that the last half was not His Words. I believe those that do so will find themselves to have been ‘believers in deception’ concerning that passage on that day.

I did not call you a KJVO, by any stretch.

I'll get back on this.

Ed

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

ED: I did not call you a KJVO, by any stretch.

I'll get back on this.

HP: I have taken absolutely no offense to anything you have posted concerning me. I will try and be clearer. :thumbs:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: "Christianity is not a religion of living good, of works. It is a faith, a relationship with Jesus Christ based on doctrine."

That is what I said. Do you have a relationship with Jesus Christ based on the doctrine of the gospel, HP? If not why not?

HP: Works and faith are inseparable. Works do NOT save anyone, neither does right doctrine. The blood of Jesus Christ cleanseth men from sin, not right doctrine or good works. I know doctrine does not save for I have believed differently on doctrine and been saved all the while.
I know doctrine is important, if it was not I would not waste my time on this list. I have sad it before that one of the most important things about doctrine is the lifestyle it genders.
Christianity is not a religion simply based on good works or living good, but neither is Christianity divorced or separated from good works and living good. James said, Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

DHK, the question is, is our faith dead or alive? Right doctrine, as important as it may be, saves no one. It is the blood of Christ that saves.

 

[DHK]

It is the blood of Christ that saves.

And that is doctrine. If you believe not that doctrine you cannot be saved. That is the essence of what I posted. Belief in the proper doctrine (faith in Christ) will bring forth fruit. The doctrine must come first.

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK,

You responded to this, by Heavenly Pilgrim...

"The Spirit of God witnesses to my spirit with utmost clarity that the KJV of Romans 8 is indeed the correct rendering of the text, and the so-called versions that leave out the last half are indeed perversions of God’s Word in this particular verse.

By saying...

"On this board you may have that "preference" or even that "conviction." Please do not say that the Holy Spirit bears witness with your spirit that the KJV is the correct rendering of the text."

What?

With all due respect, you have no way of knowing what the Holy Spirit is, or isnt, "witnessing" to Heavenly Pilgrim.

(of course, other than crazy things like if someone says "God is witnessing to me to murder my parents" or the Holy Spirit is witnessing to me to become a Hindu)

You might not agree with what Heavenly Pilgrim believes God is convicting him of, but Heavenly Pilgrim has every right to his convictions, and what he believes he is hearing from God.

"You have just implied that all who believe otherwise are not led of the Holy Spirit, or do not even have the Spirit of God."

No he isnt. He is just sharing his convicion, and what he believed the Holy Spirit is saying TO HIM.

"Such insinuations are wrong and are against the BB rules."

He is not saying ANYTHING about anyone else...only His conviction from what he believes God is saying to Him.

As an example, I do not agree with him at all about the King James Version being superior to all others.

And yet I am not even the tiniest bit offended by what he posted, nor do I feel even the tiniest bit condemned by what he posted.

The Spirit of God did not bear witness with your Spirit that the KJV was correct.

DHK....do you realise what you are saying??? You are telling Heavenly Pilgrim that you know more about what God is saying to Heavenly Pilgrim...then HE does?

You came to that conclusion on your own."

Spoken like a true mind reader and one who can discerns HP's heart and conscience.

"That may be your conviction. But you cannot force it on others with "I am holier than thou because I have the Holy Spirit and you don't" language. That is wrong, arrogant, and against the rules.

But he is not posting anything about any other posters. He is just giving his view. For some reason you are inventing attacks that arent there.


:godisgood:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Thank you Alive in Christ for being so fair about my post even if you do not agree with my personal convictions. That is often a rare commodity on this list.

By the way, you would make an excellent moderator. :thumbsup:

 

[DHK]

With all due respect, you have no way of knowing what the Holy Spirit is, or isnt, "witnessing" to Heavenly Pilgrim.

We all have our convictions. We believe they are based on the Bible. We come to them based on our own conclusions. I believe it is wrong to say "The Holy Spirit witnessed to my spirit (about which translation is right).
1. It is wrong on this board (against the rules) to attack any version of the Bible.

• The KJVO crowd will not not refer to the Modern Versions as "perversions," "satanic," "devil's bibles," etc...nor call those that use them "Bible correctors," "Bible doubters," etc.</font>
• The MV crowd will not refer to the KJVOs as "cults," "heretics," "sacrilegious," etc...nor refer to the KJV in derisive terms such as "King Jimmy's Bible," "Pickled Preserved Version," etc.</font>

http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=51917&postcount=1

2. If the Holy Spirit witnessed to HP about this matter of versions, the implication is that the Holy Spirit cannot witness to others who prefer or hold convictions just as strongly on the opposing view point. It implies that they do not have the Holy Spirit, or that the Holy Spirit cannot witness to their spirit only to HP's. We are not speaking of one's conviction here. We are speaking of his use of the phrase: "the Holy Spirit witnessed to my spirit." I am sorry, but the Holy Spirit does not contradict Himself, and that is what HP has made the Holy Spirit do--making a liar of the Holy Spirit.

You might not agree with what Heavenly Pilgrim believes God is convicting him of, but Heavenly Pilgrim has every right to his convictions, and what he believes he is hearing from God.

Convictions are not wrong. Convictions may come from personal study of the Word of God. But his convictions may be wrong, and not of the Holy Spirit, especially when half of this board believes otherwise. To infer that half of the board is unsaved is against the rules.

No he isnt. He is just sharing his convicion, and what he believed the Holy Spirit is saying TO HIM.

AIC To put it bluntly the Holy Spirit is not schizophrenic. He does not have a split personality. He does not lie. He does not lead half the board into believing one thing and the other half into believing the other. It is wrong for HP to say such a thing.

He is not saying ANYTHING about anyone else...only His conviction from what he believes God is saying to Him.

State the conviction. So God only speaks to HP on the matters of translation, and no one else? A little arrogant aren't we?

As an example, I do not agree with him at all about the King James Version being superior to all others.

Does that mean that God didn't speak to you, but you must submit to HP because God did speak to him.

And yet I am not even the tiniest bit offended by what he posted, nor do I feel even the tiniest bit condemned by what he posted.

You should be, because God spoke to him about the issue and not to you. Therefore you must submit to his God-given teaching.

DHK....do you realise what you are saying??? You are telling Heavenly Pilgrim that you know more about what God is saying to Heavenly Pilgrim...then HE does?

God does not say to HP what translations are best. I know that much.

But he is not posting anything about any other posters. He is just giving his view. For some reason you are inventing attacks that arent there.

No, he is not just giving his view. He is stating his view comes from God to the exclusion of all others. That is wrong.

 

[DHK]

Romans 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Romans 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.
Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

The context here is salvation--being a child of God.
"The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit that we are the children of God, not that the KJV is the right translation.

Keep things in perspective. Don't take Scripture out of context. This has nothing to do with translations; everything to do with our salvation and the fact the Holy Spirit bears witness to the fact that we are His children--our salvation.

 

[Alive in Christ]

DHK...

You posted, from the rules page...

"The KJVO crowd will not not refer to the Modern Versions as "perversions," "satanic," "devil's bibles," etc...nor call those that use them "Bible correctors," "Bible doubters," etc."

I didnt realise that rule was in there.


Thanks for posting that.


:godisgood:

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Chalk this one up for the things God cannot do according to DHK: Witness to man’s heart via the Holy Spirit the truth of His Word.

 

[Marcia]

Chalk this one up for the things God cannot do according to DHK: Witness to man’s heart via the Holy Spirit the truth of His Word.

That's not what DHK said. He pointed out that you are claiming revelation from the Holy Spirit that the King James version is God's word. This implies others that posters quote from are not, especially in context of other posts you have made, not just on this thread.

The Holy Spirit witnesses to us of the truth of God's word, yes, but that is different from saying the Holy Spirit is saying the King James is God's word vs. other versions used and cited by posters here.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: That's not what DHK said.

HP: That is clearly what is implied.

Marcia: He pointed out that you are claiming revelation from the Holy Spirit that the King James version is God's word.

HP: First, my comments were VERSE SPECIFIC. Do not claim that I said something that I did not say. Something must be God’s Word. They all do not say the same things especially in Romans 8:1. Which one is the Word of God Marcia?

Marcia: This implies others that posters quote from are not, especially in context of other posts you have made, not just on this thread.

HP: Other posters are free to post what the Holy Spirit witnesses to their heart. Tell us Marcia, is the version you quoted from God’s Word? If so, does the Holy Spirit testify that to you, or are you just guessing?

Marcia: The Holy Spirit witnesses to us of the truth of God's word, yes, but that is different from saying the Holy Spirit is saying the King James is God's word vs. other versions used and cited by posters here.

HP: Can or cannot the Holy Spirit testify to our hearts of verses that are not in keeping with the intent He desired to give to us when He inspired the original writers? Tell us directly Marcia, can or cannot God testify to our hearts the truth of His Word? Forget DHK for a minute. Tell us your own ideas on the matter.

 

[DHK]

HP: Other posters are free to post what the Holy Spirit witnesses to their heart. Tell us Marcia, is the version you quoted from God’s Word? If so, does the Holy Spirit testify that to you, or are you just guessing?

If you claim the KJV, and another poster claims any other version, (that the Holy Spirit witnessed to their heart), and thus the Holy Spirit led you both to opposite conclusions, then one can only conclude that the Holy Spirit is schizophrenic.

The Holy Spirit bears witness to our spirit that we are the children of God.
--Why not read the verse in its context instead of ripping it out of its context, and making it say something it doesn't!

 

[Marcia]

HP: First, my comments were VERSE SPECIFIC. Do not claim that I said something that I did not say. Something must be God’s Word. They all do not say the same things especially in Romans 8:1. Which one is the Word of God Marcia?



HP: Other posters are free to post what the Holy Spirit witnesses to their heart. Tell us Marcia, is the version you quoted from God’s Word? If so, does the Holy Spirit testify that to you, or are you just guessing?



HP: Can or cannot the Holy Spirit testify to our hearts of verses that are not in keeping with the intent He desired to give to us when He inspired the original writers? Tell us directly Marcia, can or cannot God testify to our hearts the truth of His Word? Forget DHK for a minute. Tell us your own ideas on the matter.

I study and quote from several versions. They are all the word of God but I also recognize that translations are not inspired.

God can testify to the truth of his word but not that one translation is his word and another is not (unless you are talking about translations made by the cults which change things so that it fits their views).

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Marcia: God can testify to the truth of his word but not that one translation is his word and another is not (unless you are talking about translations made by the cults which change things so that it fits their views).[/QUOTE]

HP: So you agree with DHK, in that God cannot testify to the truth of one translation of a verse over another? Some Sovereign Omnipotent God that implies.

Here is precisely what Marcia believes is impossible for God to do: Tell which translation is in accordance to what He inspired the original writers to say, that have been passed down to us by translations of the originals. God is also unable to confirm which translation is in accordance to those original documents to the hearts and minds of those that diligently seek Him via His Holy Spirit.

I believe there are some on the list that need to be reminded of the work of the Holy Spirit as testified to us in the Scriptures.
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into ALL truth.

Marcia, is the Word of God truth? Is it part of the 'all' spoken of in this passage?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: If you claim the KJV, and another poster claims any other version, (that the Holy Spirit witnessed to their heart), and thus the Holy Spirit led you both to opposite conclusions, then one can only conclude that the Holy Spirit is schizophrenic.

HP: That is pure silliness DHK. It concludes no such thing unless one is devoid of sound reasoning. It simply establishes that one or the other is deceived, and as such far from the truth.

DHK: The Holy Spirit bears witness to our spirit that we are the children of God.
--Why not read the verse in its context instead of ripping it out of its context, and making it say something it doesn't!

HP: Who said anything about that verse? I certainly did not. Why do you have to inject ideas and verses I have not even mentioned just to falsely accuse me? You debate as one that beateth against the wind DHK.

 

[DHK]

HP: That is pure silliness DHK. It concludes no such thing unless one is devoid of sound reasoning. It simply establishes that one or the other is deceived, and as such far from the truth.

If you had simply said: "It is my conviction...", or "I believe that..."
But you didn't. You slander others by stating that your beliefs concerning translations come from God, insinuating others do not. That is wrong, and against the BB rules, as has already been pointed out.

Besides that, you have a lot of arrogance to state that more than half the board who believes contrary to you is wrong and deceived, and by implication have not the Spirit of God. Most people (in any other forum) would immediately hit the alert button with such an insult. It is the same as saying "I am saved and you are not." Or, "I have the Spirit of God, and you do not."

HP: Who said anything about that verse? I certainly did not. Why do you have to inject ideas and verses I have not even mentioned just to falsely accuse me? You debate as one that beateth against the wind DHK.

You either have a short memory or deny what you said.
Here is what you said from post# 61

The Spirit of God witnesses to my spirit with utmost clarity that the KJV of Romans 8 is indeed the correct rendering of the text,

The first part of that post is a definite quote from Romans 8:16:

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

But you have taken the verse out of its context and assert that it bears witness to which translation one can use. That is not what the verse says, is it??

If you are going to quote Scripture, quote it in context, and don't butcher it or use it for your own preconceived ideas.