The trouble with this verse

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: You either have a short memory ....

HP: You must be lacking substance in your position DHK to keep falsely attacking me. I in no wise was quoting or referring to this text, not now nor ever. My memory is fine and I am in do wise denying what I said, it simply is not what you must desire for it to be.

Tell us plainly DHK, is the Holy Spirit unable to direct the mind of His children to the truth of the words He spoke to those that penned the words we now have received as the Holy Scriptures? Is that something impossible for God to do? Does the Holy Spirit reveal truth to your heart? Is there anything too hard for the Lord? Is God your source of truth or are you limited to seeking the opinions and expertise of men to find truth? Is the Holy Spirit able to enlighten your heart to all truth, or do you deny the reality of this Scripture? Joh 16:13 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth:

DHK: But you have taken the verse out of its context and assert that it bears witness to which translation one can use. That is not what the verse says, is it??

HP: Again, I did not use the verse you say I used in any such manner. It does no good to beat a dead horse in a debate DHK. Such constitutes debating as one would debate the wind. Useless I would think.

DHK: If you are going to quote Scripture, quote it in context, and don't butcher it or use it for your own preconceived ideas.

HP: Focus DHK. Focus on the truth of what I stated, not simply a figment of your imagination made up for own devices.

 

[DHK]

HP: You must be lacking substance in your position DHK to keep falsely attacking me. I in no wise was quoting or referring to this text, not now nor ever. My memory is fine and I am in do wise denying what I said, it simply is not what you must desire for it to be.

Yes, you are in denial. Let me give you an example.

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
--If in my conversation with you I refer to this verse and quote: "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life." Then I would vehemently argue, as you have been doing, that I in no way quoted John 14:6, because I left out the last half of the verse. This is what you have been doing all along.

Take a look.
Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
--In post #61, did you or did you not quote most of this verse? The obvious answer is yes you did, as I have reposted and quoted for you. Why do you deny this? You said: "The Spirit bears witness with my spirit that Romans 8:1..."
What shall we say then? You either quoted Romans 8:16 or plagiarized it without giving reference. It is the same thing. Quit denying it.

Tell us plainly DHK, is the Holy Spirit unable to direct the mind of His children to the truth of the words He spoke to those that penned the words we now have received as the Holy Scriptures? Is that something impossible for God to do?

1. It is impossible for you to look at the original MSS; we don't have them.
2. We have over 5,000 MSS of the NT, and many scholars have studied them. They all haven't come to the same conclusions.
3. Concerning the NT it was translated from Greek. The NT is preserved in Greek. No translation is inspired. It is the Greek MSS where our NT is preserved. There are mistakes in translations; it cannot be helped. Thus the command "study to show yourselves approved..."
4. In spite of translations and MSS, God will lead us into correct doctrine, but does not promise to lead you into correct MSS. That must come as a personal conviction based on your own personal study.

Does the Holy Spirit reveal truth to your heart?

Yes, but that is not the same as attacking other Bibles.
There is no doctrine contradicted in any of the modern translations of the Bible that are in common use today.

Is their anything too hard for the Lord? Is God your source of truth or are you limited to seeking the opinions and expertise of men to find truth? Is the Holy Spirit able to enlighten your heart to all truth, or do you deny the reality of this Scripture? Joh 16:13 Howbeit when He, the Spirit of truth, is come, He will guide you into all truth:

You have taken that Scripture out of context. The Holy Spirit will never guide you into ALL truth, and you will never be omniscient. The verse was written specifically to the Apostles, with the writing of the Scriptures in mind. The Holy Spirit would guide them into all the truth that God would have them to pen. No man is omniscient. No man is guided into ALL truth.

HP: Again, I did not use the verse you say I used in any such manner.

Then why did you quote it word for word as I demonstrated.

It does no good to beat a dead horse in a debate DHK. Such constitutes debating as one would debate the wind. Useless I would think.

HP: Focus DHK. Focus on the truth of what I stated, not simply a figment of your imagination made up for own devices.

Once and for all I will demonstrate for you what you have done. I will demonstrate that God's Spirit did not bear witness with your spirit, and that the Holy Spirit did not lead you:
Here are some specific posting rules:

• The KJVO crowd will not not refer to the Modern Versions as "perversions," "satanic," "devil's bibles," etc...nor call those that use them "Bible correctors," "Bible doubters," etc.</font>
• The MV crowd will not refer to the KJVOs as "cults," "heretics," "sacrilegious," etc...nor refer to the KJV in derisive terms such as "King Jimmy's Bible," "Pickled Preserved Version," etc.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=2393

You have violated these rules. Here is what Scripture says:

Hebrews 13:17 Obey them that have the rule over you, and submit yourselves: for they watch for your souls, as they that must give account, that they may do it with joy, and not with grief: for that is unprofitable for you.

Romans 13:1-2 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.
2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

Whichever Scripture you choose to use, the Bible does teach submission to authority. When you chose to press "I agree" you chose to abide by these rules.

The Holy Spirit does not lead one into rebellion.
He does not lead "against" authority.

Again Scripture says:
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
--A constant attitude of breaking the rules is grieving the Holy Spirit, not being led by the Holy Spirit.

Romans 16:17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
--Causing divisions and offences which are unnecessary is contrary to the leading of the Holy Spirit.

In spite of all theological arguments that I could give you, this in and of itself is enough to tell you that what you have claimed is not of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Tell us plainly DHK, is the Holy Spirit unable to direct the mind of His children to the truth of the words He spoke to those that penned the words we now have received as the Holy Scriptures? Is that something impossible for God to do?

 

[DHK]

Tell us plainly DHK, is the Holy Spirit unable to direct the mind of His children to the truth of the words He spoke to those that penned the words we now have received as the Holy Scriptures? Is that something impossible for God to do?

Are you asking me to answer a translational question which is against the rules of BB?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
Tell us plainly DHK, is the Holy Spirit unable to direct the mind of His children to the truth of the words He spoke to those that penned the words we now have received as the Holy Scriptures? Is that something impossible for God to do?

DHK: Are you asking me to answer a translational question which is against the rules of BB?

HP: Far from it. I am asking about the very meaning God intended to convey to man. I am asking about the way many Godly translators admitted they had to rely on to translate the Word of God properly and in accordance to God’s will. Was it, or would it have been, arrogance for them to rely on the Holy Spirit in the translation process? Is it possible that God can, via the Holy Spirit, grant to those that humbly seek Him, to enlighten the heart and mind as to the very words and thoughts that He desires to convey to man, or is it impossible for God to enlighten our hearts as to the correct context and meaning of His Word?

I suppose another way to express this question might be, is Scripture a spiritual book that must be spiritually divined, or is it simply just another book written by man that can only be understood via our five senses with all the built in error that can humanly occur when man is limited to his understanding via mere human efforts to understand the meanings thereof?

Are we not dependant upon the Holy Spirit to enlighten the heart and mind to the truth of Gods Word? Can that be done if in fact we cannot even settle on the Words themselves by which God intended to convey to man? Is man left alone to be cast between every conflicting opinion of man as to the Words God verbally instructed man to write that involve mans eternal destiny, or can the Holy Spirit reveal to man the truth of that today which He instructed holy men of old to write for our instruction and edification?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK, was it arrogance on the part of those that canonized Scripture to rely on the Holy Spirit’s guidance to determine which writings ‘said to be God’s Word’ were actually that which they felt God intended to be included in the Bible? Were they judging the salvation of those that wanted other books to be part of the Holy Bible? Would they have been seen as to be in conflict with the rules of this board?

 

[DHK]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Heavenly Pilgrim
Tell us plainly DHK, is the Holy Spirit unable to direct the mind of His children to the truth of the words He spoke to those that penned the words we now have received as the Holy Scriptures? Is that something impossible for God to do?



HP: Far from it. I am asking about the very meaning God intended to convey to man. I am asking about the way many Godly translators admitted they had to rely on to translate the Word of God properly and in accordance to God’s will. Was it, or would it have been, arrogance for them to rely on the Holy Spirit in the translation process? Is it possible that God can, via the Holy Spirit, grant to those that humbly seek Him, to enlighten the heart and mind as to the very words and thoughts that He desires to convey to man, or is it impossible for God to enlighten our hearts as to the correct context and meaning of His Word?

I will ask you two questions to determine your motive to see whether or not you are out of line.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

Romans 8:1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them that are in Christ Jesus. (ASV)

Were the translators of the KJV led by the Spirit of God to translate the very words of God so that we have the Word of God?

Were the translators of the ASV led by the Spirit of God to translate the very words of God so that we have the Word of God?

Could both groups be led of the Spirit of God?

 

[Heavenly Pilgrim]

DHK: Could both groups be led of the Spirit of God?

HP: That would be an excellent question to ask both groups of translators, and in the end see how their answers fair with God. I would ask you one question. Do these verses say the same things? Can something be and not be at the same time and in the same sense? Can two things that say different things be the same thing at the same time in the same sense?

If I said 'all roses are red,' would that say the same thing as saying 'all roses are red , THAT ARE IN MY GARDEN?' Do you think that there is any possibility that the last part of the sentence is necessary to qualify the broad first part of my sentence and for the first half to be seen as truth?

 

[DHK]

HP: That would be an excellent question to ask both groups of translators, and in the end see how their answers fair with God. I would ask you one question. Do these verses say the same things? Can something be and not be at the same time and in the same sense? Can two things that say different things be the same thing at the same time in the same sense?

If I said 'all roses are red,' would that say the same thing as saying 'all roses are red , THAT ARE IN MY GARDEN?' Do you think that there is any possibility that the last part of the sentence is necessary to qualify the broad first part of my sentence and for the first half to be seen as truth?

I am serious HP. If you can't give me a serious clear-cut simple answer without beating around the bush, I will start deleting your posts. This thread is not about texts and translations. Take it to the versions forum.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Many call themselves Christians who deny the Lord Jesus is God and of the same Essence of Divinity the Father is. Many therefore think the will of Jesus is inferior or something to the Father's will, and following Him after worshipping Him the Sovereign of one's believing and obedience, would amount to idolatry. There are MANY such 'Christians', the blasphemers who deny Jesus' Deity and equal being with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Denyers of the 'Trinity', in easy talk. They are everywhere, and always pose to be believers of the Christian Faith which they are not. I like to view them as the Nicolaiatans of the Apocalypse.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

HeavenlyPilgrim:
"is the Holy Spirit unable to direct the mind of His children to the truth of the words He spoke to those that penned the words we now have received as the Holy Scriptures? Is that something impossible for God to do? "

GE:

I assume you refer to Romans 8:1 a and b?
I believe both the before and after parts were given by the Holy Spirit.

But the second part is not pretending to have said everything. There is no such thing as a saved and regenerate believer of Christ's that does not find the latter part difficult and the battle of his life. (That's what the whole chapter 8 is about!)
How do you experience its truth? Without a hitch? Then I think you have not grasped the first principle of this text yet.

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Many call themselves Christians who deny the Lord Jesus is God and of the same Essence of Divinity the Father is. Many therefore think the will of Jesus is inferior or something to the Father's will, and following Him after worshipping Him the Sovereign of one's believing and obedience, would amount to idolatry. There are MANY such 'Christians', the blasphemers who deny Jesus' Deity and equal being with the Father and the Holy Spirit. Denyers of the 'Trinity', in easy talk. They are everywhere, and always pose to be believers of the Christian Faith which they are not. I like to view them as the Nicolaiatans of the Apocalypse.

What did the followers of Nicolas teach to the church at Perganam?