Proof text out of context to feed a pretext. I am amazed at the number of people who do this. It is the equivalent of reading the Lord of the Rings and proving Gollum to be an angel.
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The True Identity of the 144,000 of the Book of Revelation
- Thread starter christiang
- Start date
Not sure why this subject is made more complicated than it is, but I see that all the time. While John sees visions and uses symbolism, this part is clear enough:
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
v.s. the next passage
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands......
I understand there's an "Israel of God" vs an Israel of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob from which some of the spiritual seed then become Christ's. However, when specific genealogical lineages from Jacob are listed, it ceases to be something we can take the liberty of spiritualizing as any chosen ones, the church or whatever. They are chosen people from those tribes and yes become spiritual seed born from the physical. When we disregard the genealogical end of things, a chosen race, we come dangerously close to "replacement theology" and then we can spiritualize the bible to say anything we want it to.
And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel. Of the tribe of Juda were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Reuben were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Gad were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Aser were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Nepthalim were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Manasses were sealed twelve thousand.
Of the tribe of Simeon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Levi were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Issachar were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Zabulon were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Joseph were sealed twelve thousand. Of the tribe of Benjamin were sealed twelve thousand.
v.s. the next passage
After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands......
I understand there's an "Israel of God" vs an Israel of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob from which some of the spiritual seed then become Christ's. However, when specific genealogical lineages from Jacob are listed, it ceases to be something we can take the liberty of spiritualizing as any chosen ones, the church or whatever. They are chosen people from those tribes and yes become spiritual seed born from the physical. When we disregard the genealogical end of things, a chosen race, we come dangerously close to "replacement theology" and then we can spiritualize the bible to say anything we want it to.
christiang
Member
Answer the question.
You're a fan of liberal judges?
I.
So here we have the 144,000 following the Lamb which is being compared to the return of Christ and the elect being caught up with Him. This comparison is being made to prove that they are the same people and therefore the 144,000 are the only elect. The author of the op later uses the passage Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen.”
to also prop up his claim.
A. There is no biblical connection between the 144,000 in Revelation and those who are caught up in the rapture. Those caught up in the rapture are made up of those who are living at the time of the rapture and those who have already died ("God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep"). This combination of people does not describe the 144,000 found in the book of Revelation,
B. Just because the 144,000 follow Him and in I Thess 4 the church are caught up with Him in no way indicates these are the same people. It is a weak connection at best which would require other support to further make the connection.
II.
A. Here the use of the word "seal" is being misused in order to make a connection between the 144,000 and the elect of God that being the church.
B. The context of the Ephesians passage is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is the earnest payment, if your will, to let us know that while we have not yet seen our full redemption we are given the promise of it in the future. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit let's us know we are His.
C. The seal in Ephesians is very different from the seal in Revelation. The seal in Ephesians is "the promised Holy Spirit". The Seal in Revelation is a mark on the forehead. The seal in Ephesians is for the purpose of a "guarantee of our inheritance" whereas the seal in Revelation is a mark used to indicate who these witnesses are and is not issued immediately but just before the wrath of God is unleashed (Revelation 7:3)
D. These two seals are very distinct and have differing purposes and are issued at different times. There is no comparison to be made here.
III.
A. These redeemed (purchased) people in Revelation are clearly tied to being literally from the nation of Israel (Revelation 7:4-8)
B. In the I Corinthians passage the context is the church which is made of of Jews and gentiles.
IV.
A. The context of these passages are completely different and in no way are a reflection of each other. First saying the elect will not marry is not the same thing as saying one is a virgin.
B. The context of the Matthew passage is about the resurrection. That is the context of not being given in marriage. Marriage will not be needed in eternity. The act of sex is not in view in this passage.
C. What is going on during the tribulation period is a far worse level of immorality than has been seen. These Jewish witnesses in Revelation have been kept pure from the abomination of the anti-christ. This context does not line up with the context of the Matthew passage therefore cannot be compared.
V.
Making a comparison of the literal with the spiritual in this way again ignore the context of those passages.
One thing I find interesting in this sophomoric attempt at making the loose associations is the author goes back and forth from one translation to another so that he may make use of similar words and then use that as evidence of association. This technique is often done when one is inept at determining the context of passages and making an argument based on that context.
So here we have the 144,000 following the Lamb which is being compared to the return of Christ and the elect being caught up with Him. This comparison is being made to prove that they are the same people and therefore the 144,000 are the only elect. The author of the op later uses the passage Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen.”
to also prop up his claim.
A. There is no biblical connection between the 144,000 in Revelation and those who are caught up in the rapture. Those caught up in the rapture are made up of those who are living at the time of the rapture and those who have already died ("God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep"). This combination of people does not describe the 144,000 found in the book of Revelation,
B. Just because the 144,000 follow Him and in I Thess 4 the church are caught up with Him in no way indicates these are the same people. It is a weak connection at best which would require other support to further make the connection.
II.
A. Here the use of the word "seal" is being misused in order to make a connection between the 144,000 and the elect of God that being the church.
B. The context of the Ephesians passage is the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. This is the earnest payment, if your will, to let us know that while we have not yet seen our full redemption we are given the promise of it in the future. The indwelling of the Holy Spirit let's us know we are His.
C. The seal in Ephesians is very different from the seal in Revelation. The seal in Ephesians is "the promised Holy Spirit". The Seal in Revelation is a mark on the forehead. The seal in Ephesians is for the purpose of a "guarantee of our inheritance" whereas the seal in Revelation is a mark used to indicate who these witnesses are and is not issued immediately but just before the wrath of God is unleashed (Revelation 7:3)
D. These two seals are very distinct and have differing purposes and are issued at different times. There is no comparison to be made here.
III.
A. These redeemed (purchased) people in Revelation are clearly tied to being literally from the nation of Israel (Revelation 7:4-8)
B. In the I Corinthians passage the context is the church which is made of of Jews and gentiles.
IV.
A. The context of these passages are completely different and in no way are a reflection of each other. First saying the elect will not marry is not the same thing as saying one is a virgin.
B. The context of the Matthew passage is about the resurrection. That is the context of not being given in marriage. Marriage will not be needed in eternity. The act of sex is not in view in this passage.
C. What is going on during the tribulation period is a far worse level of immorality than has been seen. These Jewish witnesses in Revelation have been kept pure from the abomination of the anti-christ. This context does not line up with the context of the Matthew passage therefore cannot be compared.
V.
Making a comparison of the literal with the spiritual in this way again ignore the context of those passages.
One thing I find interesting in this sophomoric attempt at making the loose associations is the author goes back and forth from one translation to another so that he may make use of similar words and then use that as evidence of association. This technique is often done when one is inept at determining the context of passages and making an argument based on that context.
The Bible says the 144,000 are all virgins.
II Cor 11:2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.
II Cor 11:2 I am jealous for you with a godly jealousy. I promised you to one husband, to Christ, so that I might present you as a pure virgin to him.
Since when are men defiled by women?
It's always women are defiled by men except for when we're talking about angelic beings.
That's what Rev 14 is talking about. Firstfruits who came up with Christ at His Resurrection.
Rev 7 deals with those sealed - just like those in Eze 8 - with a mark from God. These are on the earth and will remain so - and they will endure to the end - up to and including the Millennial Reign.
It's always women are defiled by men except for when we're talking about angelic beings.
That's what Rev 14 is talking about. Firstfruits who came up with Christ at His Resurrection.
Rev 7 deals with those sealed - just like those in Eze 8 - with a mark from God. These are on the earth and will remain so - and they will endure to the end - up to and including the Millennial Reign.
I wonder if it is strange that yesterday, for some reason [wasn't in the Bible passage I was reading] I wondered about the 144,000???
I am sorry, I wouldn't consider myself as Biblically knowledgeable as so many here are, but I wondered this.
God puts such great emphasis on blood & "bloodlines." Last year I discovered through a DNA test [wife's birthday present] that I have Jewish ancestry. Eastern European Ashkeazi Jew, which was TOTALLY unexpected in my Scots-Irish, Dutch, American Indian mix!!!
This thought came to me only yesterday. Are the 144,000 direct blood descendants of Abraham, NOW saved as Christians. Or, are the 144,000 modern Israelis [Jews] who turn to Christ? I suppose everyone here knows of Rabbi Keduri's "deathbed confession" that Jesus IS The Messiah?
Not scholarly answers, but of course, it is possible.
I am sorry, I wouldn't consider myself as Biblically knowledgeable as so many here are, but I wondered this.
God puts such great emphasis on blood & "bloodlines." Last year I discovered through a DNA test [wife's birthday present] that I have Jewish ancestry. Eastern European Ashkeazi Jew, which was TOTALLY unexpected in my Scots-Irish, Dutch, American Indian mix!!!
This thought came to me only yesterday. Are the 144,000 direct blood descendants of Abraham, NOW saved as Christians. Or, are the 144,000 modern Israelis [Jews] who turn to Christ? I suppose everyone here knows of Rabbi Keduri's "deathbed confession" that Jesus IS The Messiah?
Not scholarly answers, but of course, it is possible.
Bloodlines aren't what will save you. Gentiles have the opportunity to be grafted in and adopted as a son when they enter covenant with the Father. It is true that all Israel will be saved, but only those who believe and do are Israel.
The 144,000 are comprised of these people:
Rev 14:12 Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones,1 here are those guarding the commands of Elohim and the belief of Yeshua: 1In 12:17 they are called “the remnant”
There are some, including myself, who believe many in Israel migrated to Europe, and this not only included the 10 tribes of the Northern "lost" house of Israel, but also Judaic tribes as well as we know the Jews and Israel were dispersed. This is one of the many evidences IMO why certain nations later became Christian and pro-Jewish being that it's in their blood and also have Abraham as father. Its as you say, many are fleshy seed who then gravitate to becoming spiritual children of God. And indeed, that's the way it is supposed to be, I believe.
Joseph shall add
Member
In he Jewish cannon "torah" The term "Father of many nations" can also be translated the Father of many gentiles", But i disagree what the blood line does not matter. In fact it matters a great deal. God destroyed by floor the tainted blood line of the people Noah was found perfect in his generation him and his house hold. That generation that was destroyed had tainted blood. Giants sleeping with the woman you know! The result is hybrids, not human. The promise was that Christ would come from the seed of the woman. Thus God preserved the pure blood line via Noah and his offspring. The blood line today is the same, It is important to God. God for told that he would disperse the Jewish people to all the nations. And he did. From that actions the Jewish seed has been sown into all the living of the earth. Jewish DNA is present in every culture on the planet with the exception of a few hidden people tribes. Most people today actually have a small part of Jewish DNA. And because of the Promise God makes in his own word, i give you unto a thousand generations salvation unto you house hold. God is making a sure declarative statement that the seed will be sown and then he will multiply it and then he will redeem it. it is sown a natural seed it is reaped a spiritual seed.
Calv1
Active Member
Amen. If I had a nickle for every theory throughout the ages I'd be a billionaire. I'm moving towards partial preterism, I know but they make incredible points
christiang
Member
You still have not answered my question. Has God chosen who will be saved or not? Based on your answer, you may be disqualified from speaking anything regarding the 144,000, for a man who does not understand the election of God cannot also understand the election of 144,000. It's like trying to to understand how an engine works when you don't even know that it runs on gasoline. Your multitude of words in this response relates to this scripture,
In the multitude of words there lacks not sin: but he that refrains his lips is wise. (Proverbs 10:19 [KJV2000])
Answer my question, and don't think I have not noticed your avoidance in answering it.
The opening verses of Revelation are consistent with a pre-ad 70 writing predicting the destruction.
The 144,000 Jews are sealed to protect them from the four winds. Matthew 24:31 They will be delivered from the great tribulation, and they did see the warning signs and were delivered.
So who are/were they?
I suggest the number represents a perfect number of all the tribes of Israel, many of whom were already in heaven, delivered from Jerusalem. Virgins implies spiritual purity. We are not defiled by marriage.
These Jewish believers were indeed the first fruits of the redeemed.
IMO partial Preterism makes good sense.
christiang
Member
This study has been updated to include scriptures relating to the topic of the "dispersion" of the tribes of Israel in relation to the identity of the 144,000. Please visit The True Identity of the 144,000 of the Book of Revelation | Wisdom of God to view the revised study.
Its easy, this is the identity of true israel:
Rev 14:12 Here is the endurance of the set-apart ones, here are those guarding the commands of Elohim and the belief of Yeshua.
Lawbreakers need not apply
christiang
Member
Then you can exclude yourself, for you borrow money at interest from Gentiles in violation of the Law.
What denomination are you