Does Jesus have a double standard? He holds pork eating as a damnable sin for a few (the ones you say have been given light) while letting the masses of His children eat all the pork they want and still be saved? Does that really make sense to you?
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The Truth About Dr. Walter Martin and The Seventh-Day Adventist Church
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Does Jesus have a double standard? He holds pork eating as a damnable sin for a few (the ones you say have been given light) while letting the masses of His children eat all the pork they want and still be saved? Does that really make sense to you?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Isn't this the same question currently being debated on the Calvinism Vs Arminian section of this board asking if Calvinism even has the right Gospel?
From an Arminian POV -- Calvinism depects no choice for the lost sinner and a God that arbitrarily selects some to be Lost while others to be saved - no result of choice at all ... just arbitrary selection.
Is that the exact "SAME" Gospel as "God so loved the WORLD that He gave" and "whosoever WILL may come" and "God is not WILLING that ANY should perish" and "we BEG you on behalf of Christ BE reconciled to God"???
Really? They are "exactly the SAME"??
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Isaiah 66 says someone is going to burn in hell for eating mice... you knew that right?
“But he who kills an ox is like one who slays a man;
He who sacrifices a lamb is like the one who breaks a dog’s neck;
He who offers a grain offering is like one who offers swine’s blood;
He who burns incense is like the one who blesses an idol.
As they have chosen their own ways,
And their soul delights in their abominations,
4 So I will choose their punishments
And will bring on them what they dread.
Because I called, but no one answered;
I spoke, but they did not listen.
And they did evil in My sight
And chose that in which I did not delight.”
...
15 For behold, the Lord will come in fire
And His chariots like the whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For the Lord will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the Lord will be many.
.
17 “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens,
Following one in the center,
Who eat swine’s flesh, detestable things and mice,
Will come to an end altogether,” declares the Lord
John 9
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
I don't think it is the same question. Do Baptist statements of faith say anything to the effect that Calvinism is the Truth about salvation? My question to you is are any of these "official" doctrinal statements by Baptist or Catholics wrong about salvation?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
I do.
Earlier you asked for a one-off individual view and not the denomination's statement on a specific detail --- fine you are now getting "mine" as asked.
There is a degree to which both can be found to say "saved by grace through faith" and quote Ephesians 2 with affirmation. So that's a good thing.
(If you're simply looking for the "good" in both)
Well there you go, your are making my point again. YOU believe eating pork or rather abstaining from eating pork is part of your salvation. You do not eat pork because you believe you will be damned for doing so, this is why you cited Isaiah 66. But you will not find anything about eating pork damning one to hell in any "official" doctrinal statement of faith by the SDA. THUS, we must look at the practice and attitude of the SDA member to understand just what is taught in the SDA and what is believed by their members. YOU are that example for us.
No, I asking if YOU see any "bad" in their officially stated doctrines that would cause a person to miss salvation and be damned to hell?
Bingo!
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
And "I" already said that "I" see places that can use some improvement as in the example "I" gave between Calvinism and the Arminian model.
Glad that is now massively clear.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Isaiah 66 says someone is going to burn in hell for eating mice... you knew that right?
“But he who kills an ox is like one who slays a man;
He who sacrifices a lamb is like the one who breaks a dog’s neck;
He who offers a grain offering is like one who offers swine’s blood;
He who burns incense is like the one who blesses an idol.
As they have chosen their own ways,
And their soul delights in their abominations,
4 So I will choose their punishments
And will bring on them what they dread.
Because I called, but no one answered;
I spoke, but they did not listen.
And they did evil in My sight
And chose that in which I did not delight.”
...
15 For behold, the Lord will come in fire
And His chariots like the whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For the Lord will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the Lord will be many.
.
17 “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens,
Following one in the center,
Who eat swine’s flesh, detestable things and mice,
Will come to an end altogether,” declares the Lord
John 9
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Hmm the mere quote of the Bible makes your point?? really?? --- perhaps you should be glad unless you are twisting this somehow.
“But he who kills an ox is like one who slays a man;
He who sacrifices a lamb is like the one who breaks a dog’s neck;
He who offers a grain offering is like one who offers swine’s blood;
He who burns incense is like the one who blesses an idol.
As they have chosen their own ways,
And their soul delights in their abominations,
4 So I will choose their punishments
And will bring on them what they dread.
Because I called, but no one answered;
I spoke, but they did not listen.
And they did evil in My sight
And chose that in which I did not delight.”
...
15 For behold, the Lord will come in fire
And His chariots like the whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For the Lord will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the Lord will be many.
.
17 “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens,
Following one in the center,
Who eat swine’s flesh, detestable things and mice,
Will come to an end altogether,” declares the Lord
John 9
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Hmm the mere quote of the Bible makes your point?? really?? --- perhaps you should be glad unless you are twisting this somehow.
Calvinism and Arminian is not found in any Baptist official statement of faith or doctrine that i know of. Do you have information to the contrary?
Yes really. Where is pork eating as part of salvation written anywhere in the SDA official statements on doctrines?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Isaiah 66 says someone is going to burn in hell for eating mice... you knew that right?
“But he who kills an ox is like one who slays a man;
He who sacrifices a lamb is like the one who breaks a dog’s neck;
He who offers a grain offering is like one who offers swine’s blood;
He who burns incense is like the one who blesses an idol.
As they have chosen their own ways,
And their soul delights in their abominations,
4 So I will choose their punishments
And will bring on them what they dread.
Because I called, but no one answered;
I spoke, but they did not listen.
And they did evil in My sight
And chose that in which I did not delight.”
...
15 For behold, the Lord will come in fire
And His chariots like the whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For the Lord will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the Lord will be many.
.
17 “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens,
Following one in the center,
Who eat swine’s flesh, detestable things and mice,
Will come to an end altogether,” declares the Lord
John 9
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Hmm the mere quote of the Bible makes your point?? really?? --- perhaps you should be glad unless you are twisting this somehow.
I am always a bit surprised when you make your case from the scriptures alone in our discussion.
Or were you about to accuse me of "writing" John 9 and Isaiah 66????
I don't think it is ever stated that way in SDA doctrine. I have a link to the voted-on 28 Fundamental Beliefs if you care to see for yourself.
I was just quoting the "Bible" for you since your comment made it appear you were not reading that part of it.
“But he who kills an ox is like one who slays a man;
He who sacrifices a lamb is like the one who breaks a dog’s neck;
He who offers a grain offering is like one who offers swine’s blood;
He who burns incense is like the one who blesses an idol.
As they have chosen their own ways,
And their soul delights in their abominations,
4 So I will choose their punishments
And will bring on them what they dread.
Because I called, but no one answered;
I spoke, but they did not listen.
And they did evil in My sight
And chose that in which I did not delight.”
...
15 For behold, the Lord will come in fire
And His chariots like the whirlwind,
To render His anger with fury,
And His rebuke with flames of fire.
16 For the Lord will execute judgment by fire
And by His sword on all flesh,
And those slain by the Lord will be many.
.
17 “Those who sanctify and purify themselves to go to the gardens,
Following one in the center,
Who eat swine’s flesh, detestable things and mice,
Will come to an end altogether,” declares the Lord
John 9
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
Hmm the mere quote of the Bible makes your point?? really?? --- perhaps you should be glad unless you are twisting this somehow.
I am always a bit surprised when you make your case from the scriptures alone in our discussion.
Or were you about to accuse me of "writing" John 9 and Isaiah 66????
I don't think it is ever stated that way in SDA doctrine. I have a link to the voted-on 28 Fundamental Beliefs if you care to see for yourself.
I was just quoting the "Bible" for you since your comment made it appear you were not reading that part of it.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
There is a thread on the C-vs-A board section titles something like "The SBC Baptist Faith and Message is promoting Calvinism" - I have not read the thread though and there seems to be a lot of Baptist Calvinists over there that think that Calvinism is consistent with Baptist teaching.
But my point was not "Baptists have to be Calvinists" my point was that you can find Arminian and Calvinist baptists in discussion and you can find posts on that thread detailing where the Calvinist model is straying from the strict Bible presentation of the Gospel.
So that "in house" discussions among Baptists have that same "is your view changing the Gospel into something else" sort of debate --- among Baptists... which was my point.
I think you would agree that salvation is a pretty important matter. Agreed? So if your SDA church believes one's salvation is tied to whether or not one abstains from eating pork, shouldn't that be part of their official Fundamental Beliefs? OR, does the SDA church not believe or teach that eating pork matters in one's salvation?
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Agreed.
And I would agree that "changing the Gospel" is very important and that it should not be done because this is central to the whole topic of salvation. AND as noted this basic idea is the the same question currently being debated on the Calvinism Vs Arminian section of this board as an "in house discussion" asking if Calvinism even has the right Gospel?
From an Arminian POV -- Calvinism depicts "no choice" for the lost sinner and a God that arbitrarily selects some to be Lost while others to be saved - no result of choice at all ... just arbitrary selection.
Is that the exact "SAME" Gospel as "God so loved the WORLD that He gave" and "whosoever WILL may come" and "God is not WILLING that ANY should perish" and "we BEG you on behalf of Christ BE reconciled to God"???
Really? They are "exactly the SAME"?? I think we both agree - they are not.
And clearly they don't have that listed.
Nor do they list "taking God's name in vain"
Nor do they list "bowing down to images"
None of those specific commands are trotted out in the form "if you ever do this you are going to hell".
Rather "ALL have sinned" and "ALL need the Gospel".
Christians who sin ... saved Christians - are supposed to repent and receive forgiveness of sins.
And of course -- as has been stated repeatedly.
John 9
41 Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.
BTW - just like Baptists and Methodists do not publish an "infinitely long list of -- this is what we do NOT believe " neither does the Adventist church ... obviously.
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The discussion you are referring to is comparing individual's Calvinism beliefs with the bible. OUR discussion is about comparing individual's beliefs with their church's official statements concerning doctrinal positions, specifically on salvation. I believe all Baptist denominations statements declare salvation is through faith alone in Jesus Christ, whether they be Calvinist or Arminian or anything in between, they all agree and officially state that salvation is through faith alone in Jesus Christ.
Exactly! And this is the point of our discussion. When it comes to salvation, SDA members are obviously taught their salvation depends on their own merits (commandment keeping), even though you will not find this in any SDA "official" statements. Why is this? It is because they want to be seen as fundamentally having the same standards/beliefs as main stream Christianity. Then, once they get people into their fold, they indoctrinate them on what they really believe about salvation. It is really a bait and switch.
I have said nothing about churches stating what "we do NOT believe". ...obviously. This is about a religious organization making "official" statements about their Fundamental Beliefs on salvation and leaving out what they are really preaching from the pulpit on salvation. This alone is antichrist, deceptive.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
My point is that the "other Gospel" topic on the C-V-A board is a case where even Baptists see a problem in one of those views.
As long as you can "quote you" and then claim this is what someone else believes - that sort of thing works.
I could say "Baptist believe in cheap grace, and wherever the Bible refutes them they blame the one who quotes that part of the Bible as if it is evil to do so" -- "no matter that they don't actually say that and no doctrine that they print claims it".
It does not make it so.
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"this is the point of our discussion. When it comes to salvation, SDA members are obviously taught their salvation depends on their own merits"
Bob, I got this from your own answer to pork eating. I asked you before if this was just your own belief or if all SDA think pork eating will damn them? You didn't answer nor deny the whole church believes such.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
hmmm I quote the actual Bible.
+
You make stuff up
=
You get to insert whatever you wish as made-up-doctrine and blame it on me??
In fact you asked me if there was a doctrine that said something lik you just made up - and I pointed you to our Fundamental Beliefs which don't have your made-up idea listed.
As we both know
So in the end - your "proof" is that I provided a post with a Bible text in it that you had previously contradicted
It looks to me like you need to throw away that shovel at some point
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