Bob's continued avoidance of your direct question gives us all we need to know.
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The Truth About Dr. Walter Martin and The Seventh-Day Adventist Church
- Thread starter thatbrian
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Bob's continued avoidance of your direct question gives us all we need to know.
Question for Steaver, "Steaver, do you believe someone who violates the Sabbath should be put to death?"
Steaver's answer....Numbers 15:32. "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp."
Questioner, "So Steaver, you do believe a person should be put to death for working on the sabbath."
Steaver, "What?! I never said any such thing, that is you quoting you, I merely quoted the actual bible, You get to insert whatever you wish as made-up-doctrine and blame it on me??
Well Steaver you can clear this up. Yes or No, Do you believe a person should be put to death for violating the Sabbath?
I believe we covered this already...but this is fun...I get to repeat myself over and over for you and everyone to see....
..Numbers 15:32. "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, theyfound a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp."
So that is a yes? So you do believe a person should be put to death for working on the sabbath."
"What?! I never said any such thing, that is you quoting you, I merely quoted the actual bible, You get to insert whatever you wish as made-up-doctrine and blame it on me??
Shall I quote the scripture for you again? Glad to do it....
Well they are consistent with the run arounds and the dodge and duck.
One Baptism
Active Member
Yes, the law still absolutely applies, but in the NT way [for there is now spiritual Israel, Romans 9 & 11, etc], thus there is to be consideration of the "condition" and "timing" thereof in its fulfillment [read carefully please, as I do not want it to be fulfilled upon anyone here, but the judgment therein will fall upon the unrepentant]:
The mocking question arises from the many who have gone out from us, from those who resist the truth, and from the skeptics, doubters and the blasphemous, “Do you stone the Sabbath breaker? If not, then you do not keep all of the law, and pick and choose what you want, being hypocrites and judges of yourselves, for if you keep not one point, you are guilty of all. You turn away from God's written judgment and replace it with your own self-righteousness, even a law of your own making.”
The true answer to, “Do you stone the Sabbath breaker?”, according the the King James Bible, is “Yes, all being a matter of Who, What, Where, When, Why and How.”
See for yourself.
The Law of God explicitly says:
Sins of Ignorance, No Knowledge:
Numbers 15:22 KJB - And if ye have erred, and not observed all these commandments, which the LORD hath spoken unto Moses,
Numbers 15:23 KJB - Even all that the LORD hath commanded you by the hand of Moses, from the day that the LORD commanded Moses, and henceforward among your generations;
Numbers 15:24 KJB - Then it shall be, if ought be committed by ignorance without the knowledge of the congregation, that all the congregation shall offer one young bullock for a burnt offering, for a sweet savour unto the LORD, with his meat offering, and his drink offering, according to the manner, and one kid of the goats for a sin offering.
Numbers 15:25 KJB - And the priest shall make an atonement for all the congregation of the children of Israel, and it shall be forgiven them; for it is ignorance: and they shall bring their offering, a sacrifice made by fire unto the LORD, and their sin offering before the LORD, for their ignorance:
Numbers 15:26 KJB - And it shall be forgiven all the congregation of the children of Israel, and the stranger that sojourneth among them; seeing all the people were in ignorance.
Numbers 15:27 KJB - And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering.
Numbers 15:28 KJB - And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him.
Numbers 15:29 KJB - Ye shall have one law for him that sinneth through ignorance, both for him that is born among the children of Israel, and for the stranger that sojourneth among them.
Sins of Presumption, Willful Ignorance, Stubborn Rebellion:
Numbers 15:30 KJB - But the soul that doeth ought presumptuously, whether he be born in the land, or a stranger, the same reproacheth the LORD; and that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
Numbers 15:31 KJB - Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.
Numbers 15:31 KJB - Because he hath despised the word of the LORD, and hath broken his commandment, that soul shall utterly be cut off; his iniquity shall be upon him.
The Presumptuous Sin of a Sabbath Breaker who knew His Masters Will:
Numbers 15:32 KJB - And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
Numbers 15:33 KJB - And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
Numbers 15:34 KJB - And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
Numbers 15:35 KJB - And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
Numbers 15:36 KJB - And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.
Numbers 15:33 KJB - And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
Numbers 15:34 KJB - And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
Numbers 15:35 KJB - And the LORD said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
Numbers 15:36 KJB - And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the LORD commanded Moses.
This statute and punishment for disobedience was given directly by God [even Jesus] Himself.
- It applies to “the children of Israel”, and all, native born or stranger, within their “camp” [Numbers 15:35,36 KJB], property, “borders”, and/or “gates”, see Exodus 20:10 KJB.
Side note:
Jesus is Israel:
The Disciples of Jesus who keep His commandments are His children:
... to be continued ...Jesus is Israel:
Matthew 2:13 KJB - And when they were departed, behold, the angel of the Lord appeareth to Joseph in a dream, saying, Arise, and take the young child and his mother, and flee into Egypt, and be thou there until I bring thee word: for Herod will seek the young child to destroy him.
Matthew 2:14 KJB - When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Matthew 2:15 KJB - And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Hosea 11:1 KJB - When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
Matthew 2:14 KJB - When he arose, he took the young child and his mother by night, and departed into Egypt:
Matthew 2:15 KJB - And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, Out of Egypt have I called my son.
Hosea 11:1 KJB - When Israel was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt.
The Disciples of Jesus who keep His commandments are His children:
Hebrews 2:10 KJB - For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.
Hebrews 2:11 KJB - For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Hebrews 2:12 KJB - Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
Hebrews 2:13 KJB - And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
Hebrews 2:11 KJB - For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,
Hebrews 2:12 KJB - Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
Hebrews 2:13 KJB - And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
One Baptism
Active Member
... continued ...
Side note:
Isaiah 8:14 KJB is cited again in the New Testament by Paul [Romans 9:32,33 KJB] and Peter [1 Peter 2:8 KJB] as applying directly to Jesus, who is Immanuel, God with us.
Isaiah 8:15 KJB - And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
Isaiah 8:16 KJB - Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
Side note:
Hebrews 2:13 KJB is directly citing Isaiah 8:18 KJB, which is why Paul says, “An again,” meaning 'It is written'.
Hebrews 2:14 KJB - Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Hebrews 2:15 KJB - And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Hebrews 2:16 KJB - For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Hebrews 2:17 KJB - Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Hebrews 2:18 KJB - For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Isaiah 8:8 KJB - And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.
Isaiah 8:9 KJB - Associate yourselves, O ye people, and ye shall be broken in pieces; and give ear, all ye of far countries: gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces; gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces.
Isaiah 8:10 KJB - Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us.
Isaiah 8:11 KJB - For the LORD spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying,
Isaiah 8:12 KJB - Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.
Isaiah 8:13 KJB - Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
Isaiah 8:14 KJB - And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Side note:Hebrews 2:14 KJB - Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
Hebrews 2:15 KJB - And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
Hebrews 2:16 KJB - For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
Hebrews 2:17 KJB - Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Hebrews 2:18 KJB - For in that he himself hath suffered being tempted, he is able to succour them that are tempted.
Isaiah 8:8 KJB - And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel.
Isaiah 8:9 KJB - Associate yourselves, O ye people, and ye shall be broken in pieces; and give ear, all ye of far countries: gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces; gird yourselves, and ye shall be broken in pieces.
Isaiah 8:10 KJB - Take counsel together, and it shall come to nought; speak the word, and it shall not stand: for God is with us.
Isaiah 8:11 KJB - For the LORD spake thus to me with a strong hand, and instructed me that I should not walk in the way of this people, saying,
Isaiah 8:12 KJB - Say ye not, A confederacy, to all them to whom this people shall say, A confederacy; neither fear ye their fear, nor be afraid.
Isaiah 8:13 KJB - Sanctify the LORD of hosts himself; and let him be your fear, and let him be your dread.
Isaiah 8:14 KJB - And he shall be for a sanctuary; but for a stone of stumbling and for a rock of offence to both the houses of Israel, for a gin and for a snare to the inhabitants of Jerusalem.
Isaiah 8:14 KJB is cited again in the New Testament by Paul [Romans 9:32,33 KJB] and Peter [1 Peter 2:8 KJB] as applying directly to Jesus, who is Immanuel, God with us.
Isaiah 8:15 KJB - And many among them shall stumble, and fall, and be broken, and be snared, and be taken.
Isaiah 8:16 KJB - Bind up the testimony, seal the law among my disciples.
See Isaiah 8:16 KJB, “my disciples” cited in the New Testament by Jesus in Matthew 12:46-50; Mark 14:14; Luke 14:26,27,33, 22:11; John 8:31, 13:35, 15:8 KJB.
Isaiah 8:17 KJB - And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.
Isaiah 8:18 KJB - Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.
Isaiah 8:19 KJB - And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
Isaiah 8:20 KJB - To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Isaiah 8:17 KJB - And I will wait upon the LORD, that hideth his face from the house of Jacob, and I will look for him.
Isaiah 8:18 KJB - Behold, I and the children whom the LORD hath given me are for signs and for wonders in Israel from the LORD of hosts, which dwelleth in mount Zion.
Isaiah 8:19 KJB - And when they shall say unto you, Seek unto them that have familiar spirits, and unto wizards that peep, and that mutter: should not a people seek unto their God? for the living to the dead?
Isaiah 8:20 KJB - To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
- Take notice, that it was during the time “in the wilderness” that they found “a man” that “gathered sticks upon the sabbath day”.
Side note:
The Christians are presently going through “the wilderness” and are upon the borders of the Heavenly Canaan and are to keep the sabbath. Thus the sabbath breakers are to found here during this time and will be judged by that which is written in the time to come, when the “camp of the saints” comes down to earth.
Side note:
Christians are to keep the Sabbath, in the New and Everlasting Covenant as it is written:
Read Isaiah 56:1 KJB, as it talks about Jesus:
Isaiah 56:2 KJB - Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
Isaiah 56:3 KJB - Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
Isaiah 56:4 KJB - For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
Isaiah 56:5 KJB - Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
Isaiah 56:6 KJB - Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
Isaiah 56:7 KJB - Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
Thus, as it is written, Matthew 2:13-15; Hosea 11:1; Hebrews 2:10-18; Isaiah 8:8-20; Isaiah 56:1,8; John 10:16 and Isaiah 56:2-7 KJB are unbreakable and unanswerable.
The Christians are presently going through “the wilderness” and are upon the borders of the Heavenly Canaan and are to keep the sabbath. Thus the sabbath breakers are to found here during this time and will be judged by that which is written in the time to come, when the “camp of the saints” comes down to earth.
Side note:
Christians are to keep the Sabbath, in the New and Everlasting Covenant as it is written:
Read Isaiah 56:1 KJB, as it talks about Jesus:
Isaiah 56:1 KJB - Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation is near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.
Now read Isaiah 56:8 KJB, as it also talks about Jesus:
Isaiah 56:8 KJB - The Lord GOD which gathereth the outcasts of Israel saith, Yet will I gather others to him, beside those that are gathered unto him.
Now read the fulfillment of Isaiah 56:8 KJB in John 10:16 KJB:
John 10:16 KJB - And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.
Now go back and see the context of Isaiah 56:1,8 in Isaiah 56:2-7 KJB, in what would be done by Jesus and those who follow Him in the New Covenant:
Isaiah 56:2 KJB - Blessed is the man that doeth this, and the son of man that layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.
Isaiah 56:3 KJB - Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I am a dry tree.
Isaiah 56:4 KJB - For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose the things that please me, and take hold of my covenant;
Isaiah 56:5 KJB - Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.
Isaiah 56:6 KJB - Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
Isaiah 56:7 KJB - Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.
Thus, as it is written, Matthew 2:13-15; Hosea 11:1; Hebrews 2:10-18; Isaiah 8:8-20; Isaiah 56:1,8; John 10:16 and Isaiah 56:2-7 KJB are unbreakable and unanswerable.
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One Baptism
Active Member
... continued ...
- It was the solemn duty of the whole faithful congregation to remove the person from the “camp” and place them “without” [outside] the “camp”.
- It was then the more solemn duty of the whole faithful congregation, by the direction of God's judgment, to “stone” that presumptuous law-breaker “with stones”, and “put to death”, “cut off”, so that the “iniquity shall be upon” the person forever.
Compare, even with the New Testament Texts:
Sins of Ignorance:
Luke 12:48 KJB - But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
Sins of Presumption:
Luke 12:47 KJB - And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
God's word says of Himself, that He is Merciful and yet Just, in His dealing with man-kind:
Exodus 20:5 KJB - Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;
Exodus 20:6 KJB - And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Exodus 34:6 KJB - And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Exodus 34:7 KJB - Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Leviticus 19:15 KJB - Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
Leviticus 19:35 KJB - Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure.
Leviticus 19:36 KJB - Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin, shall ye have: I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt.
Leviticus 19:37 KJB - Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: I am the LORD.
Deuteronomy 5:9 KJB - Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
Deuteronomy 5:10 KJB - And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
Deuteronomy 16:18 KJB - Judges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, throughout thy tribes: and they shall judge the people with just judgment.
Deuteronomy 16:19 KJB - Thou shalt not wrest judgment; thou shalt not respect persons, neither take a gift: for a gift doth blind the eyes of the wise, and pervert the words of the righteous.
Deuteronomy 16:20 KJB - That which is altogether just shalt thou follow, that thou mayest live, and inherit the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Deuteronomy 25:15 KJB - But thou shalt have a perfect and just weight, a perfect and just measure shalt thou have: that thy days may be lengthened in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Deuteronomy 32:4 KJB - He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
2 Samuel 14:14 KJB - For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.
Psalms 102:27 KJB - But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
Isaiah 45:21 KJB - Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
Malachi 3:6 KJB - For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Acts 10:34 KJB - Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Acts 22:14 KJB - And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
Hebrews 1:12 KJB - And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Hebrews 13:8 KJB - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Revelation 15:3 KJB - And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
Exodus 20:6 KJB - And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.
Exodus 34:6 KJB - And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,
Exodus 34:7 KJB - Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.
Leviticus 19:15 KJB - Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment: thou shalt not respect the person of the poor, nor honour the person of the mighty: but in righteousness shalt thou judge thy neighbour.
Leviticus 19:35 KJB - Ye shall do no unrighteousness in judgment, in meteyard, in weight, or in measure.
Leviticus 19:36 KJB - Just balances, just weights, a just ephah, and a just hin, shall ye have: I am the LORD your God, which brought you out of the land of Egypt.
Leviticus 19:37 KJB - Therefore shall ye observe all my statutes, and all my judgments, and do them: I am the LORD.
Deuteronomy 5:9 KJB - Thou shalt not bow down thyself unto them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me,
Deuteronomy 5:10 KJB - And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me and keep my commandments.
Deuteronomy 16:18 KJB - Judges and officers shalt thou make thee in all thy gates, which the LORD thy God giveth thee, throughout thy tribes: and they shall judge the people with just judgment.
Deuteronomy 16:19 KJB - Thou shalt not wrest judgment; thou shalt not respect persons, neither take a gift: for a gift doth blind the eyes of the wise, and pervert the words of the righteous.
Deuteronomy 16:20 KJB - That which is altogether just shalt thou follow, that thou mayest live, and inherit the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Deuteronomy 25:15 KJB - But thou shalt have a perfect and just weight, a perfect and just measure shalt thou have: that thy days may be lengthened in the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.
Deuteronomy 32:4 KJB - He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.
2 Samuel 14:14 KJB - For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.
Psalms 102:27 KJB - But thou art the same, and thy years shall have no end.
Isaiah 45:21 KJB - Tell ye, and bring them near; yea, let them take counsel together: who hath declared this from ancient time? who hath told it from that time? have not I the LORD? and there is no God else beside me; a just God and a Saviour; there is none beside me.
Malachi 3:6 KJB - For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
Acts 10:34 KJB - Then Peter opened his mouth, and said, Of a truth I perceive that God is no respecter of persons:
Acts 22:14 KJB - And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest know his will, and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.
Hebrews 1:12 KJB - And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.
Hebrews 13:8 KJB - Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever.
Revelation 15:3 KJB - And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.
God is Just and no respecter of persons.
... to be continued ...
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One Baptism
Active Member
... continued ...
What was the penalty for sabbath breaking in the Old Testament texts? Eternal Death.
Ezekiel 18:4 KJB - Behold, all souls are mine; as the soul of the father, so also the soul of the son is mine: the soul that sinneth, it shall die.
Ezekiel 18:20 KJB - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
Ezekiel 18:20 KJB - The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
What is the penalty for sabbath breaking in the New Testament texts? Eternal Death.
Romans 6:23 KJB - For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Hebrews 10:29 KJB - Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Side note:
Hebrews 10:29 KJB - Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
Side note:
Those who transgress the Sabbath commandment [Exodus 20:8-11 KJB], actually trample upon Jesus Christ Himself. For it was He who entered into the rest upon the Sabbath, paying the price to redeem fallen man, making it Holy again [the first was at Creation; Genesis 2:1-3 KJB], therefore take off thy shoes from off thy feet, for it is Holy time, made thus by the blood of the Son of God. Oh, there is more, so much more in this, but I cannot now share it here, it would add too many pages to this study, but I say, to any who want it. Ask, and it shall be given.
Ok, since the wages/penalty for sin [1 John 3:4 KJB], such as sabbath breaking, in the Old Testament texts was death by stoning, yea even also by fire of God:
Jeremiah 17:27 KJB - But if ye will not hearken unto me to hallow the sabbath day, and not to bear a burden, even entering in at the gates of Jerusalem on the sabbath day; then will I kindle a fire in the gates thereof, and it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem, and it shall not be quenched.
Jeremiah 34:22 KJB - Behold, I will command, saith the LORD, and cause them to return to this city; and they shall fight against it, and take it, and burn it with fire: and I will make the cities of Judah a desolation without an inhabitant.
Jeremiah 34:22 KJB - Behold, I will command, saith the LORD, and cause them to return to this city; and they shall fight against it, and take it, and burn it with fire: and I will make the cities of Judah a desolation without an inhabitant.
The question them comes at us Seventh-day Adventists, “Are Christians to stone the sabbath breaker?”
After all, did not Jesus say to the scribes and Pharisees, about the woman caught in adultery [whose punishment in the OT texts was also stoning to death - Leviticus 20:10 KJB; Deuteronomy 22:21-24; Ezekiel 16:38-40, 23:47; and also John 8:5 KJB:
John 8:7 KJB - So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
This text is absolutely true, but let us not wrest the words beyond that which they plainly state, and see what else Jesus also said and see how they fit perfectly together and without contradiction.
It is written, that there are no contradictions in scripture, the King James Bible, but each text must be compared with all other texts and be found in perfect harmony:
John 10:35 KJB - “... the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;”
Isaiah 8:20 KJB - To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Isaiah 28:10 KJB - For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isaiah 28:13 KJB - But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
1 Corinthians 2:13 KJB - Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1 Corinthians 14:33 KJB - For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
Isaiah 8:20 KJB - To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
Isaiah 28:10 KJB - For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:
Isaiah 28:13 KJB - But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.
1 Corinthians 2:13 KJB - Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
1 Corinthians 14:33 KJB - For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
The Great Controversy (1888 & 1911), Chapter XX [20], A Great Religious Awakening, 370.2 -
“... One saying of the Saviour must not be made to destroy another. … {GC88 370.2}...”
Jesus did say, “... He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone ...”, but He does not negate that which He gave previously in the OT texts in the statutes and judgments, for Jesus also said:
Matthew 5:17 KJB - Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Matthew 5:18 KJB - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 5:19 KJB - Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
Matthew 5:18 KJB - For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Matthew 5:19 KJB - Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
As it is written again:
Matthew 24:35 KJB - Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
Mark 13:31 KJB - Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Luke 16:17 KJB - And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Luke 21:33 KJB - Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Mark 13:31 KJB - Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
Luke 16:17 KJB - And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one tittle of the law to fail.
Luke 21:33 KJB - Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.
When will the Heaven and Earth pass away? Not until the 2nd and 3rd coming of Christ Jesus:
2 Peter 3:10 KJB - But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
Revelation 21:1 KJB - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
Revelation 21:1 KJB - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
How then can both John 8:7 KJB and Matthew 5:17-19 KJB be in harmony and not in direct contradiction to each other and to other texts?
Simple. In the Condition & Timing; in otherwords, the “... matter of Who, What, Where, When, Why and How ...”
Let us see from the scripture, the King James Bible, itself. Notice the text of John 8:7 KJB again more closely and examine carefully and prayerfully, for there is a “condition” therein for “stoning” the transgressor.
John 8:7 KJB - So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
Do we see the condition that must be met first? It is to be “without sin”.
Presently, we all on this earth are sinners and have a record of sin, and thus, presently, we are not “without sin”:
Psalms 14:3 KJB - They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Jeremiah 2:22 KJB - For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.
Romans 3:9 KJB - What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Romans 3:10 KJB - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:12 KJB - They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Romans 3:23 KJB - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 5:12 KJB - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
... to be continued ...Jeremiah 2:22 KJB - For though thou wash thee with nitre, and take thee much soap, yet thine iniquity is marked before me, saith the Lord GOD.
Romans 3:9 KJB - What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Romans 3:10 KJB - As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:12 KJB - They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Romans 3:23 KJB - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 5:12 KJB - Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
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... continued ...
Yet, is there a time coming when the saints of God will be “without sin”? Oh, yes … when Christ Jesus makes the final atonement in the Most Holy Place and blots out all the record of the sins of the saints. They will then be “without sin” on earth, and shortly thereafter, taken to heaven, where no sin shall enter.
Leviticus 16:30 KJB - For on that day shall the priest make an atonement for you, to cleanse you, that ye may be clean from all your sins before the LORD.
Leviticus 16:33 KJB - And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation.
Leviticus 16:34 KJB - And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.
Psalms 51:1 KJB - To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
Psalms 51:9 KJB - Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
Acts 3:19 KJB - Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
Leviticus 16:33 KJB - And he shall make an atonement for the holy sanctuary, and he shall make an atonement for the tabernacle of the congregation, and for the altar, and he shall make an atonement for the priests, and for all the people of the congregation.
Leviticus 16:34 KJB - And this shall be an everlasting statute unto you, to make an atonement for the children of Israel for all their sins once a year. And he did as the LORD commanded Moses.
Psalms 51:1 KJB - To the chief Musician, A Psalm of David, when Nathan the prophet came unto him, after he had gone in to Bathsheba. Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.
Psalms 51:9 KJB - Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.
Acts 3:19 KJB - Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;
The Bible Echo, November 25, 1895, The Love of God, par. 5 -
“... Herein is the mystery of redemption, that the innocent, pure, and holy Son of the infinite God was permitted to bear the punishment of a thankless race of rebels against the divine government; that through the manifestation of His matchless love, these rebels might be inspired with faith in, and love for God, and might stand before Him repentant, forgiven, guiltless, as if they had never sinned. Angels in heaven marvelled that the wrath of God should be laid on His well-beloved Son; that a life of infinite value in the heavenly courts should be given for the worthless life of a race degraded by sin. {BEcho, November 25, 1895 par. 5} ...”
The Review and Herald, August 29, 1893, The Remnant Church Not Babylon, par. 3 -
“... Satan stands at the head of all the accusers of the brethren; but when he presents the sins of the people of God, what does the Lord answer? He says, "The Lord rebuke [not Joshua, who is a representative of the tried and chosen people of God, but] thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire? Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel." Satan had represented the chosen and loyal people of God as being full of defilement and sin. He could depict the particular sins of which they had been guilty. Had he not set the whole confederacy of evil at work to lead them, through his seductive arts, into these very sins? But they had repented, they had accepted the righteousness of Christ. They were therefore standing before God clothed with the garments of Christ's righteousness, and "he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with a change of raiment." Every sin of which they had been guilty was forgiven, and they stood before God as chosen and true, as innocent, as perfect, as though they had never sinned. {RH, August 29, 1893 par. 3} ...”
The Signs of the Times, April 10, 1893, Overcome as Christ Overcame, par. 4 -
“... We are not to serve God as if we were not human, but we are to serve him as those who have been redeemed by the Son of God and through the righteousness of Christ we shall stand before God pardoned, and as though we had never sinned. We shall never gain strength in considering what we might do if we were angels; but as obedient children we are to turn in faith to Jesus Christ, and show our love to God through obedience to his commands. Jesus "was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." Jesus says, "Follow me." "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me." Jesus leads the way. Do not wait and continue in disobedience, hoping circumstances may change, making it easier for you to obey. Go forward, for you know the will of God. "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." {ST, April 10, 1893 par. 4} ...”
See also:
[1] Manuscripts Releases, Volume 6, [Nos. 347-418] (1990), MR No. 402, The Divine-Human Nature of Christ, 342.3
[2] Notebook Leaflets from the Elmshaven Library Volume 1 (1945), Chapter 18, Restlessness and Accusation by Ellen G White, 53.2
[3] Christ Triumphant (1999), Chapter 1, Conflict in Heaven And in the First Family, 25.6
[4] Our High Calling (1961), Chapter 42, Christ's Humanity a Golden Chain, 48.5
[5] Selected Messages Book 3 (1980), Chapter 19, The Incarnation, 140.5
[6] Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary Volume 5 (1956), John, 15, 1142.5
[7] Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers (1923), Chapter 1, The Church of Christ, 39.2
[2] Notebook Leaflets from the Elmshaven Library Volume 1 (1945), Chapter 18, Restlessness and Accusation by Ellen G White, 53.2
[3] Christ Triumphant (1999), Chapter 1, Conflict in Heaven And in the First Family, 25.6
[4] Our High Calling (1961), Chapter 42, Christ's Humanity a Golden Chain, 48.5
[5] Selected Messages Book 3 (1980), Chapter 19, The Incarnation, 140.5
[6] Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary Volume 5 (1956), John, 15, 1142.5
[7] Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers (1923), Chapter 1, The Church of Christ, 39.2
The saints at the blotting out of sin will be “without sin”, and then they must enter the New Jerusalem above [Galatians 4:26 KJB], which is the “camp of the saints” [Revelation 20:9 KJB, see also Numbers 15:33-35 KJB], and there enter into the Judgment, for 1,000 years, wherein they will compare the deeds of the wicked, like sabbath breakers, with the Law of God, the Bible. After the 1,000 years in Heaven, and the comparing of the deeds with the Bible, the saints will agree with the judgments of God already laid down therein. They will “Amen” His judgments and so execute them.
God shall judge all things by His word, the Bible:
Ecclesiastes 12:13 KJB - Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
Ecclesiastes 12:14 KJB - For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
John 12:48 KJB - He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Jude 1:6 KJB - And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Ecclesiastes 12:14 KJB - For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.
John 12:48 KJB - He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Jude 1:6 KJB - And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Know ye not that we, the saints, shall judge the wicked world?
1 Corinthians 6:2 KJB - Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters?
Know ye not that we, the saints, shall judge the wicked angels?
1 Corinthians 6:3 KJB - Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?
When will those “without sin” judge the wicked world and wicked angels? During the 1,000 years, in Heaven:
Daniel 7:22 KJB - Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.
Side note:
[1] “Until ...”, that is the AD 538 unto the AD 1798, and/or the AD 508 unto the AD 1798-1843/44
[2] “... the Ancient of Days came ...”, that is, the Father came to the Most Holy Place from the Holy Place [Daniel 7:9,10; Revelation 3:7,8 KJB] in AD 1844, October 22, aka: the 10th Day of the 7th Month [Leviticus 23:27-32; Revelation 9:13-15; 14:6-7 KJB, the Hour [of His judgment], Day [10th, atonement], Month [Ethanim [aka Tishri], 7th; 1 Kings 8:2] and Year [AD 1844; Daniel 8:13-14, 12:12, etc]
[3] “... and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High ...”, as seen in Revelation 20:4 KJB, during the 1,000 years.
[4] “... and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.”, which “time” is after the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 24:22 and Genesis 2:1-3 KJB.
[2] “... the Ancient of Days came ...”, that is, the Father came to the Most Holy Place from the Holy Place [Daniel 7:9,10; Revelation 3:7,8 KJB] in AD 1844, October 22, aka: the 10th Day of the 7th Month [Leviticus 23:27-32; Revelation 9:13-15; 14:6-7 KJB, the Hour [of His judgment], Day [10th, atonement], Month [Ethanim [aka Tishri], 7th; 1 Kings 8:2] and Year [AD 1844; Daniel 8:13-14, 12:12, etc]
[3] “... and judgment was given to the saints of the Most High ...”, as seen in Revelation 20:4 KJB, during the 1,000 years.
[4] “... and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom.”, which “time” is after the 1,000 years of Revelation 20:1-6, Isaiah 24:22 and Genesis 2:1-3 KJB.
Daniel 7:26 KJB - But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.
Revelation 20:4 KJB - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
Revelation 20:4 KJB - And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
... to be continued ...
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... to be continued ...
Once the Judgment in Heaven takes place by those “without sin”, during the 1,000 years, then New Jerusalem will have to come down to earth, wherein all of the wicked will be raised “without the camp” [Numbers 15:35,36 KJB], then the stoning of the sabbath breaker takes place and even the burning by fire, yea, fiery stones fall upon them and destroy them:
Psalms 18:12 KJB - At the brightness that was before him his thick clouds passed, hail stones and coals of fire.
Psalms 18:13 KJB - The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.
Isaiah 24:22 KJB - And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
Luke 17:26 KJB - And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luke 17:27 KJB - They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luke 17:28 KJB - Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luke 17:29 KJB - But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luke 17:30 KJB - Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Hebrews 10:27 KJB - But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Revelation 20:7 KJB - And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Revelation 20:8 KJB - And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Revelation 20:9 KJB - And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 21:8 KJB - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 22:15 KJB - For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Psalms 18:13 KJB - The LORD also thundered in the heavens, and the Highest gave his voice; hail stones and coals of fire.
Isaiah 24:22 KJB - And they shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited.
Luke 17:26 KJB - And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Luke 17:27 KJB - They did eat, they drank, they married wives, they were given in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, and the flood came, and destroyed them all.
Luke 17:28 KJB - Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;
Luke 17:29 KJB - But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all.
Luke 17:30 KJB - Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.
Hebrews 10:27 KJB - But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Revelation 20:7 KJB - And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
Revelation 20:8 KJB - And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
Revelation 20:9 KJB - And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
Revelation 21:8 KJB - But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Revelation 22:15 KJB - For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Compare:
1 John 2:4 KJB - He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
Now let us see the execution of judgment by the saints, in their “amen” of God's judgments, as it is written:
Psalms 149:1 Praise ye the LORD. Sing unto the LORD a new song, and his praise in the congregation of saints.
Psalms 149:2 Let Israel rejoice in him that made him: let the children of Zion be joyful in their King.
Psalms 149:3 Let them praise his name in the dance: let them sing praises unto him with the timbrel and harp.
Psalms 149:4 For the LORD taketh pleasure in his people: he will beautify the meek with salvation.
Psalms 149:5 Let the saints be joyful in glory: let them sing aloud upon their beds.
Psalms 149:6 Let the high praises of God be in their mouth, and a twoedged sword in their hand;
Psalms 149:7 To execute vengeance upon the heathen, and punishments upon the people;
Psalms 149:8 To bind their kings with chains, and their nobles with fetters of iron;
Psalms 149:9 To execute upon them the judgment written: this honour have all his saints. Praise ye the LORD.
The Great Controversy (1888), Chapter XLI [41], Desolation of the Earth, 660.3-661.2 -
“... During the thousand years between the first and the second resurrection, the Judgment of the wicked takes place. The apostle Paul points to this Judgment as an event that follows the second advent. “Judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts.” [1 Corinthians 4:5.] Daniel declares that when the Ancient of days [661] came, “Judgment was given to the saints of the Most High.” [Daniel 7:22.] At this time the righteous reign as kings and priests unto God. John in the Revelation says: “I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them.” “They shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.” [Revelation 20:4, 6; 1 Corinthians 6:2,3.] It is at this time that, as foretold by Paul, “the saints shall judge the world.” [Revelation 20:4, 6; 1 Corinthians 6:2, 3.] In union with Christ they judge the wicked, comparing their acts with the statute book, the Bible, and deciding every case according to the deeds done in the body. Then the portion which the wicked must suffer is meted out, according to their works; and it is recorded against their names in the book of death. {GC88 660.3}
Satan also and evil angels are judged by Christ and his people. Says Paul, “Know ye not that we shall judge angels?” [Revelation 20:4, 6; 1 Corinthians 6:2, 3.] And Jude declares that “the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains-under darkness unto the Judgment of the great day.” [Jude 6.] {GC88 661.1}
At the close of the thousand years the second resurrection will take place. Then the wicked will be raised from the dead, and appear before God for the execution of “the judgment written.” Thus the Revelator, after describing the resurrection of the righteous, says, “The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.” [Revelation 20:5; Isaiah 24:22.] And Isaiah declares, concerning the wicked, “They shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited” [Revelation 20:5; Isaiah 24:22.] {GC88 661.2} ...”
... to be continued ...Satan also and evil angels are judged by Christ and his people. Says Paul, “Know ye not that we shall judge angels?” [Revelation 20:4, 6; 1 Corinthians 6:2, 3.] And Jude declares that “the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains-under darkness unto the Judgment of the great day.” [Jude 6.] {GC88 661.1}
At the close of the thousand years the second resurrection will take place. Then the wicked will be raised from the dead, and appear before God for the execution of “the judgment written.” Thus the Revelator, after describing the resurrection of the righteous, says, “The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.” [Revelation 20:5; Isaiah 24:22.] And Isaiah declares, concerning the wicked, “They shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited” [Revelation 20:5; Isaiah 24:22.] {GC88 661.2} ...”
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... to be continued ...
The Great Controversy (1911), Chapter 41, Desolation of the Earth, 660.4-661.2 -
“... During the thousand years between the first and the second resurrection the judgment of the wicked takes place. The apostle Paul points to this judgment as an event that follows the second advent. "Judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of [661] the hearts." 1 Corinthians 4:5. Daniel declares that when the Ancient of Days came, "judgment was given to the saints of the Most High." Daniel 7:22. At this time the righteous reign as kings and priests unto God. John in the Revelation says: "I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them." "They shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years." Revelation 20:4, 6. It is at this time that, as foretold by Paul, "the saints shall judge the world." 1 Corinthians 6:2. In union with Christ they judge the wicked, comparing their acts with the statute book, the Bible, and deciding every case according to the deeds done in the body. Then the portion which the wicked must suffer is meted out, according to their works; and it is recorded against their names in the book of death. {GC 660.4}
Satan also and evil angels are judged by Christ and His people. Says Paul: "Know ye not that we shall judge angels?" Verse 3. And Jude declares that "the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day." Jude 6. {GC 661.1}
At the close of the thousand years the second resurrection will take place. Then the wicked will be raised from the dead and appear before God for the execution of "the judgment written." Thus the revelator, after describing the resurrection of the righteous, says: "The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." Revelation 20:5. And Isaiah declares, concerning the wicked: "They shall be gathered together, as prisoners are gathered in the pit, and shall be shut up in the prison, and after many days shall they be visited." Isaiah 24:22. {GC 661.2} ...”
For similar quotations, see also:
[1] Maranatha (1976), Chapter 327, The Millennial Judgment, 335.1-335.4;
[2] Maranatha (1976), Chapter 329, Satan Loosed From His Prison, 337.1-337.3;
[3] The Faith I Live By (1958), Chapter 12, The Triumph of the Gospel, We Shall Judge Angels, 354.1-354.5
[2] Maranatha (1976), Chapter 329, Satan Loosed From His Prison, 337.1-337.3;
[3] The Faith I Live By (1958), Chapter 12, The Triumph of the Gospel, We Shall Judge Angels, 354.1-354.5
The Southern Watchman, March 14, 1905, The Restoration Of Eden, par. 10-13 -
“... During the thousand years between the first and the second resurrection, the judgment of the wicked takes place. Daniel declares that when the Ancient of days came, "judgment was given to the saints of the Most High." At this time the righteous reign as kings and priests unto God. John in the Revelation says, "I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them." "They shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years." It is at this time that, as foretold by Paul, "the saints shall judge the world." In union with Christ they judge the wicked, comparing their acts with the statute book, the Bible, and deciding every case according to the deeds done in the body. Satan also and evil angels are judged by Christ and his people. {SW, March 14, 1905 par. 10}
At the close of the thousand years the second resurrection will take place. Then the wicked will be raised from the dead, and appear before God for the execution of "the judgment written." Thus the Revelator, after describing the resurrection of the righteous, says, "The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." {SW, March 14, 1905 par. 11}
The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. "Upon the wicked he shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. The wicked "shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." All are punished "according to their deeds." {SW, March 14, 1905 par. 12}
In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch,--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and Heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {SW, March 14, 1905 par. 13} ...”
At the close of the thousand years the second resurrection will take place. Then the wicked will be raised from the dead, and appear before God for the execution of "the judgment written." Thus the Revelator, after describing the resurrection of the righteous, says, "The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished." {SW, March 14, 1905 par. 11}
The wicked receive their recompense in the earth. "Upon the wicked he shall rain quick burning coals, fire and brimstone, and a horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup." Fire comes down from God out of heaven. The earth is broken up. The weapons concealed in its depths are drawn forth. Devouring flames burst from every yawning chasm. The very rocks are on fire. The day has come that shall burn as an oven. The elements melt with fervent heat, the earth also, and the works that are therein are burned up. The wicked "shall be stubble; and the day that cometh shall burn them up, saith the Lord of hosts." All are punished "according to their deeds." {SW, March 14, 1905 par. 12}
In the cleansing flames the wicked are at last destroyed, root and branch,--Satan the root, his followers the branches. The full penalty of the law has been visited; the demands of justice have been met; and Heaven and earth, beholding, declare the righteousness of Jehovah. {SW, March 14, 1905 par. 13} ...”
The Review and Herald (1850), The Present Truth, November 1, 1850 Dear Brethren and Sisters, par. 5 -
“... After the saints are changed to immortality, and are caught up together, and receive their harps, crowns, &c., and enter the Holy City, Jesus and the saints set in judgment. The books are opened, the book of life and the book of death; the book of life contains the good deeds of the saints, and the book of death contains the evil deeds of the wicked. These books were compared with the Statute book, the Bible, and according to that they were judged. The saints in unison with Jesus pass their judgment upon the wicked dead. Behold ye! said the angel, the saints sit in judgment, in unison with Jesus, and mete out to each of the wicked, according to the deeds done in the body, and it is set off against their names what they must receive, at the execution of the judgment. This, I saw, was the work of the saints with Jesus, in the Holy City before it descends to the earth, through the 1000 years. Then at the close of the 1000 years, Jesus, and the angels, and all the saints with him, leaves the Holy City, and while he is descending to the earth with them, the wicked dead are raised, and then the very men that "pierced him," being raised, will see him afar off in all his glory, the angels and saints with him, and will wail because of him. They will see the prints of the nails in his hands, and in his feet, and where they thrust the spear into his side. The prints of the nails and the spear will then be his glory. It is at the close of the 1000 years that Jesus stands upon the Mount of Olives, and the Mount parts asunder, and it becomes a mighty plain, and those who flee at that time are the wicked, that have just been raised. Then the Holy City comes down and settles on the plain. {RH, November 1, 1850 par. 5} ...”
... to be continued ...
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... continued ...
A Sketch of the Christian Experience and Views of Ellen G White (1851), 33.2 -
“... After the saints are changed to immortality, and are caught up together, with Jesus, receive their harps, crowns, &c., and enter the City, Jesus and the saints sit in judgment. The books are opened, the book of life and the book of death; the book of life contains the good deeds of the saints, and the book of death contains the evil deeds of the wicked. These books were compared with the Statute book, the Bible, and according to that they were judged. The saints in unison with Jesus pass their judgment upon the wicked dead. Behold ye! said the angel, the saints sit in judgment, in unison with Jesus, and mete out to each of the wicked, according to the deeds [34] done in the body, and it is set off against their names, what they must receive at the execution of the judgment. This, I saw, was the work of the saints with Jesus, in the Holy City before it descends to the earth, through the 1000 years. Then at the close of the 1000 years, Jesus, and the angels, and all the saints with him, leaves the Holy City, and while he is descending to the earth with them, the wicked dead are raised, and then the very men that “pierced him,” being raised, will see him afar off in all his glory, the angels and saints with him, and will wail because of him. They will see the prints of the nails in his hands, and in his feet, and where they thrust the spear into his side. The prints of the nails and the spear will then be his glory. It is at the close of the 1000 years that Jesus stands upon the Mount of Olives, and the Mount parts asunder, and it becomes a mighty plain, and those who flee at that time are the wicked, that have just been raised. Then the Holy City comes down and settles on the plain. {ExV 33.2} ...”
Early Writings (1882), Experience and Views, The Last Plagues and the Judgment, 52.2 -
“... After the saints are changed to immortality and caught up together with Jesus, after they receive their harps, their robes, and their crowns, and enter the city, Jesus and the saints sit in judgment. The books are opened--the book of life and the book of death. The book of life contains the good deeds of the saints; and the book of death contains the evil deeds of the wicked. These books are compared with the statute book, the Bible, and according to that men are judged. The saints, in unison with Jesus, pass their judgment upon the wicked dead. "Behold ye," said the angel, "the saints, in unison with Jesus, sit in judgment, and mete [53] out to the wicked according to the deeds done in the body, and that which they must receive at the execution of the judgment is set off against their names." This, I saw, was the work of the saints with Jesus through the one thousand years in the Holy City before it descends to the earth. Then at the close of the one thousand years, Jesus, with the angels and all the saints, leaves the Holy City, and while He is descending to the earth with them, the wicked dead are raised, and then the very men that "pierced Him," being raised, will see Him afar off in all His glory, the angels and saints with Him, and will wail because of Him. They will see the prints of the nails in His hands and in His feet, and where they thrust the spear into His side. The prints of the nails and the spear will then be His glory. It is at the close of the one thousand years that Jesus stands upon the Mount of Olives, and the mount parts asunder and becomes a mighty plain. Those who flee at that time are the wicked, who have just been raised. Then the Holy City comes down and settles on the plain. Satan then imbues the wicked with his spirit. He flatters them that the army in the city is small, and that his army is large, and that they can overcome the saints and take the city. {EW 52.2} ...”
Manuscripts Releases, Volume 12 [Nos. 921-999] (1990), MR No. 973 Need for Unity Among Spiritual Shepherds, 248.2-248.3 -
“... Then I saw that after Jesus leaves the sanctuary the plagues will be poured out. Said the angel, It is the wrath of God and the Lamb that causes the destruction or death of the wicked. I saw that at the voice of God the saints will be mighty and terrible as an army with banners, but they will not then execute the judgment written. But after they are changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye [1 Corinthians 15:52], and are caught up with the sleeping saints [1 Thessalonians 4:17], and receive their harps, crowns, etc., and enter the city, Jesus and the saints sit in judgment, the books are opened, the book of life and the book of death. {12MR 248.2}
The book of life contains the good deeds of the saints, and the book of death contains the evil deeds of the wicked. These books were compared with the statute book--the Bible--and according to that they were judged. The saints in unison with Jesus passed their judgment upon the wicked dead. "Behold ye," said the angel, "the saints sit in unison with Jesus and mete out to each of the wicked according to the deeds done in the body [2 Corinthians [-249-] 5:10], and it is set off against their names what they must receive at the execution of the judgment." This I saw was the work of the saints with Jesus through the 1,000 years. {12MR 248.3} ...”
The book of life contains the good deeds of the saints, and the book of death contains the evil deeds of the wicked. These books were compared with the statute book--the Bible--and according to that they were judged. The saints in unison with Jesus passed their judgment upon the wicked dead. "Behold ye," said the angel, "the saints sit in unison with Jesus and mete out to each of the wicked according to the deeds done in the body [2 Corinthians [-249-] 5:10], and it is set off against their names what they must receive at the execution of the judgment." This I saw was the work of the saints with Jesus through the 1,000 years. {12MR 248.3} ...”
Early Writings (1882), Spiritual Gifts Volume 1, 290.3 -
“... Then I saw thrones, and Jesus and the redeemed saints sat upon them; and the saints reigned as kings [291] and priests unto God. Christ, in union with His people, judged the wicked dead, comparing their acts with the statute book, the Word of God, and deciding every case according to the deeds done in the body. Then they meted out to the wicked the portion which they must suffer, according to their works; and it was written against their names in the book of death. Satan also and his angels were judged by Jesus and the saints. Satan's punishment was to be far greater than that of those whom he had deceived. His suffering would so far exceed theirs as to bear no comparison with it. After all those whom he had deceived had perished, Satan was still to live and suffer on much longer. {EW 290.3} ...”
The Story of Redemption (1947), Chapter 63, The Millennium, 416.3 -
“... Then I saw thrones, and Jesus and the redeemed saints sat upon them; and the saints reigned as kings and priests unto God. Christ, in union with His people, judged the wicked dead, comparing their acts with the Statute Book, the Word of God, and deciding every case according to the deeds done in the body. Then they meted out to the wicked the portion which they must suffer, according to their works; and it was written against their names in the book of death. Satan also and his angels were judged by Jesus and the saints. Satan's punishment was to be far greater than that of those whom he had deceived. His suffering would so far exceed theirs as to bear no comparison with it. After all those whom he had deceived had perished, Satan was still to live and suffer on much longer. {SR 416.3} ...”
The End, literally ... [I quoted the SoP/ToJ, Spirit of Prophecy/Testimony of Jesus, for Seventh-day Adventists, and all others who may be interested, for it comes from a sermon I preached called "Stone the Sabbath-Breaker"].
Truth is never fearful of light. Lies must live in the shadows.
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Question for all those members that oppose "sola scriptura testing": does Steaver "believe the Bible" at this point or "challenges the Bible" or come back with "anything BUT the Bible" as his response?
Let's see.
Hmm the mere quote of the Bible makes your point?? really?? --- perhaps you should be glad unless you are twisting this somehow -- or you are free to oppose the Bible as if "I WROTE it"
That is the "you are evil for quoting the Bible" kind of 'sola scriptura test'!!
There you have it my anti-sola-scriptura friends -- you have another "convert"
I merely "quote the Bible" and Steaver argues that the mere QUOTE of it - is evil.
True it is not a doctrine - particularly in the way you spin it... but the idea of not condemning the Bible IS A DOCTRINE in the Adventist church. This idea seems to be "new to you" which is "odd" because you and I are "supposed to be" on the "sola-scriptura' side of the fence and NOT on the "anything but the bible" side where "one is condemned dare they quote the actual Bible".
How "'odd"
How "instructive" for the unbiased objective reader.
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BobRyan
Well-Known Member
hint: Quoting "yourself" and anything-but-the-Bible is not "light"
BobRyan
Well-Known Member
Sadly for you - your own "Baptist Confession of Faith" section 19 debunks your false speculation.
So also does the "Westminster Confession of Faith" section 19
we all knew that by now - since I have quoted it so many many times
If you can't make a case that you OWN scholars will accept -- how do you expect the objectivity needed to persuade someone who is not already Baptist???
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