The Twelve Best Questions to Ask Before Going to a New Church

[Salty]

My pastor supports himself by driving a truck for a living and leaves it up to us if we feel like giving him donations. More importantly, he encourages us to follow the actual biblical example of giving to those who are less fortunate.

How do we determine someone is less fortunate.
Actual example:
We had a couple in our church that appeared needy. Their only income was from govt - ie food stamps, SSI, ect.
Mrs Salty wanted to take Mrs Jones grocery shopping and was willing to spend about $100 to help them buy some necessary food items.
Well, we sat down with them to assist in their budget. I do not remember the exact amount of income - but it was in the neighborhood of $1500/ month. Jim showed me a list o his bills. The very first thing on his list was cigarettes! That amount was $300! In addition there were a few other items - not really needed, but could be done without. When Mrs. Salty saw the amount for ciggs - she look at me and shook her head - telling me - NO SHOPPING trip. So would you them them grocery shopping?

The reason I bring this up - is that we do want to help those in need. But do we have a responsibility to see if they are in need? Who should find out if they have a real need. You dont want everyone in the church going to their house. Wow - the reason for deacons

 

[Ben1445]

Animal sacrifices predated the Law. I suppose we should bring that back too.

Considering that your giving has nothing to do with salvation, there really is no parallel. The perfect sacrifice came.
Where was the tithe to end all tithes? Where is the living tithe that once accepted will never need to be given again?
The parallel is just not there.

I don’t go to a dedicated church building, so I don’t know. We’ve mostly been gathering in our homes.

That’s great. It sounds like you have a lot less overhead than most churches.

I’m not so legalistic about that I take out a calculator like a lot of IFB preachers would have you do.

Is it legalistic to put a measure against yourself and find out if you are as good as you think you are?
Or is it legalistic to expect someone else to give more than 10% when you are not willing to make sure you measure up to what you expect of others?

My pastor supports himself by driving a truck for a living and leaves it up to us if we feel like giving him donations.

That is very kind of him. I would be willing to guess that he would be encouraged by more commitment to the “ox that treads out the corn.” Especially since God didn’t say that about the ox especially. The NT is clear that the purpose of that statement in the OT was applicable to the NT churches and was given for people specifically.

1 Corinthians 9:14
Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

More importantly, he encourages us to follow the actual biblical example of giving to those who are less fortunate.

He is welcome to refuse it as Paul did. But I have no doubt that God will bless a church and provide for the needs of His churches if the people are willing to do it the way God ordained for it to be done.
You don’t have to take my suggestion, but if you will study this out, you will be a blessing to your pastor if you at least let him know that you know (because you have studied it, not because I said it) that the care of his needs are the responsibility of the church. If you, or someone, would check in with him at least on a monthly basis and find out if his roof leaks or if his car works, or if he needs anything, you will be an incredible help to him by being there whether he needs your help or not.
I say monthly because life changes. Anything can happen. It is kinder to him to ask him than to make him ask or mention it. Get a group of interested people to sit down and think about it. It is better for the church to do it than one individual.
You may be doing this already. That would be great.
It is commendable that there are still pastors who are willing to take on the responsibility of the gospel and a church without expectation of reward or hire that he is worthy of.

It is not commendable at all, and it is unbiblical for a church to take advantage of their pastor’s generosity. Paul was quite clear that it is proper for churches to have the responsibility of salaries. It is not possible for a church to ignore 1Cor. 9 and still be able to consider themselves as doing what they should be as a church.

I’m not at your church. I don’t know everything about your churches situation. God’s Word on the subject is not negotiable. It is the same all over the world.

 

[Tea]

But do we have a responsibility to see if they are in need?

If we don't use discernment, then it could be that all we're doing is feeding their self-destructive habits. For example, I stopped giving money to homeless people some years ago because in my state, the government assistance programs paid for with tax dollars are more than generous.

Any homeless person at any time can be put up in permanent housing and be given 3 free meals a day. The only way you can be homeless around here is if you choose to be, and very likely because they're not willing to give up the drugs at the expense of getting the help they need.

 

[Tea]

Considering that your giving has nothing to do with salvation, there really is no parallel.

Sure there is. If you're going to say that one practice that would eventually be codified in the Law is different than another, then you're not being consistent. As James says, breaking one commandment is equal to breaking all of them.

Where was the tithe to end all tithes?

If Christ fulfilled the Law on our behalf, then I suppose it would be the same as the Sabbath rest that ended all Sabbath rests.

Hebrews 4:9-10 (ESV)
So then, there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God, for whoever has entered God's rest has also rested from his works as God did from his.

Is it legalistic to put a measure against yourself and find out if you are as good as you think you are?
Or is it legalistic to expect someone else to give more than 10% when you are not willing to make sure you measure up to what you expect of others?

Not at all. If we're living under grace and not the Law, then we have the freedom to determine how much to give and where to give to. Since I believe that a mandated 10% tithe is a false doctrine, I don't have to judge others by forcing a fixed percentage amount on them to see if they're in right standing with God. They can give a lot if it's within their means or a little if things are tight. It's no skin off my nose and none of my business.

It is not commendable at all, and it is unbiblical for a church to take advantage of their pastor’s generosity.

I'm not aware of anyone in my fellowship who does. He tells us that we need to worry about others before worrying about him. I have no problem going out of my way to provide a helping hand if he asks for it. He's humble that way.

Paul was quite clear that it is proper for churches to have the responsibility of salaries.

I do believe that ministers are entitled to be compensated for their work, but they are not entitled to arbitrarily decide what they want their salary to be and insist on receiving a specified percentage amount of one's earnings in order to meet that figure. Matt Slick is one of the few pastors who openly acknowledges that the 10% monetary tithe is not a requirement for Christians and if the income from his local church is not enough to cover his expenses, he would pursue additional work outside of the ministry.

 

[Ben1445]

I once found a study that showed on average, about 6-10% of all money donated to churches actually goes towards charitable organizations and other good causes. The rest is spent on salaries and building expenses.

If that's true, would you find that to be highly problematic?

Since I believe that a mandated 10% tithe is a false doctrine, I don't have to judge others by forcing a fixed percentage amount on them to see if they're in right standing with God.

It was your point that 6-10% is not enough. You just don’t feel comfortable applying that standard to yourself while you find it problematic for others not to meet the same standard.

Just an observation. You don’t answer to me. I just always find it ironic that people who don’t think churches do enough, don’t believe in tithing.

 

[Ben1445]

I do believe that ministers are entitled to be compensated for their work, but they are not entitled to arbitrarily decide what they want their salary to be

Out of curiosity, what is a reasonable salary for a pastor.
Rough estimates are acceptable.
I understand that the cost of living is less in some locations than others.

 

[Ben1445]

Out of curiosity, what is a reasonable salary for a pastor.
Rough estimates are acceptable.
I understand that the cost of living is less in some locations than others.

This question is open to anyone. I understand it is potentially an uncomfortable topic but it’s open.

 

[Tea]

You just don’t feel comfortable applying that standard to yourself while you find it problematic for others not to meet the same standard.

Honestly, I don't know what percentage I give. It might be more than 10%; it might be less. I don't carry a ledger around with me every time I make a charitable contribution.

By the way, Christ gave 100%, and it cost Him his life. If we are going to use numbers to determine who measures up, shouldn't we be giving 100% of our income away? Going by that logic, I shouldn't be satisfied unless I see that my bank account consistently has a balance of $0.00.

I just always find it ironic that people who don’t think churches do enough, don’t believe in tithing.

I would never ever place myself under the leadership of a pastor who teaches that you must give 10% of your gross income directly to them. Sorry if that causes offense, but I have to be brutally honest about that.

 

[Tea]

Out of curiosity, what is a reasonable salary for a pastor.

I have no idea, but I think six figures is probably going too far.

 

[Ben1445]

Honestly, I don't know what percentage I give. It might be more than 10%; it might be less. I don't carry a ledger around with me every time I make a charitable contribution.

By the way, Christ gave 100%, and it cost Him his life. If we are going to use numbers to determine who measures up, shouldn't we be giving 100% of our income away? Going by that logic, I shouldn't be satisfied unless I see that my bank account consistently has a balance of $0.00.



I would never ever place myself under the leadership of a pastor who teaches that you must give 10% of your gross income directly to them. Sorry if that causes offense, but I have to be brutally honest about that.

I don’t mean that the pastor gets 10% of everyone’s income.

 

[Salty]

Out of curiosity, what is a reasonable salary for a pastor.
Rough estimates are acceptable.
I understand that the cost of living is less in some locations than others.

I have heard that his salary should be the average of his congregation.
In addition - suppose a member is a mechanic - and is able to help fix his car -
that can save the pastor a pretty penny
A farmer may supply the pastors family with eggs.
A driving instructor may help the children of the pastor to learn how to drive, ect, ect

 

[OLD SARGE]

Animal sacrifices predated the Law. I suppose we should bring that back too.



I don’t go to a dedicated church building, so I don’t know. We’ve mostly been gathering in our homes. I’m not so legalistic about that I take out a calculator like a lot of IFB preachers would have you do.

My pastor supports himself by driving a truck for a living and leaves it up to us if we feel like giving him donations. More importantly, he encourages us to follow the actual biblical example of giving to those who are less fortunate.

Nothing is said about anything new in supporting a church so the tithe should still apply. All the verses used to knock it speak to giving to the poor, not church finance.

They met daily in the temple and house to house for prayer, food and fellowship. Corporate worship was not replaced by house churches. When strong persecution starts we may have to resort to the woods or caves, but being a visible church of many members is always better than a tiny group. I supported myself as well by having several careers and now could offer my services free to a church. but that age discrimination thing is strong. God made one temple for a nation, but we need multiple buildings, including houses, for people of like faith. Yes, we are the Church, not a building, corporate worship is good for the community. Indeed, if we started merging instead of splitting into so many factions the lost may actually start believing that we "are one in the Spirit and one in Lord." We could stop praying for unity and make it happen. God is willing as He only sees us one Body. We should display that to the lost and get over ourselves and our petty preferences.