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The two major shortcomings of Calvinism

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One) What is limited about it?
Atonement is limited by lack of faith. That is, if one doesn't believe, one does not accept Christ's atonement. Calvinists would have it that God has chosen randomly (and I would say capriciously) who will not believe ("vessels for destruction"). God makes no such choice. "Whoever will" come, empowered by the drawing, calling and efficacious grace of the Holy Spirit from God, will come to salvation. That can be anybody on the planet. God did not choose some to be unable to believe.
Two) What is your explanation of atonement?
Essentially I just explained it, but the Atonement has the potential -- all who read, please note, the potential -- to be effective for the whole world, but the whole world will not believe, because there will be some who, though drawn, called and exposed to the efficacious grace of God, will deny the offer, for whatever reason no one can imagine, other than God. That does not make God "powerless" over those who deny, it makes them the self-determiner of their own fate, a fate He knew from the beginning they would choose. He "foreknew," and those He foreknew in the affirmative of the gospel, He "predestined to become conformed to the image of God" (Romans 8:29). Note that the first thing He did was that He "foreknew." What did He foreknow about them? That they would believe, therefore He predestined those who believe to be "conformed to the image of God."

It also says those whom He "predestined, He also called" (Romans 8:30). It doesn't say He doesn't call others, because at this point, we've narrowed down the group whom Paul addresses as the believers. He calls everyone, but only some will respond. Why? For the same reason Pharaoh hardened his own heart. Pride. Self-sufficiency. Arrogance. Self-will. Human nature. While God hardened Pharaoh's heart toward accomplishing the deliverance of Israel, in the end, Pharaoh hardened his own heart, just as all natural men do. It takes God to open some hearts. Some hearts will simply not be opened.
Three) Out of curiosity, are you a Dispensationalist?
Yup.
You "donut" have to answer the last question if you feel it is confidential.
Huh.jpg


did-you-say-donuts_fb_2023659.jpg
 
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Rippon

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Old, old news, Rip, and still a valid statement today.
You have a big disconnect. You are admitting that you have no clue. You claimed earlier that there was a discontinuity between Calvin and "his students" at the Council of Dort. Then you claimed that you agreed with the conclusions of Dr. Muller who said that there was no discontinuity. Now you are back again with your former position. You are like the proverbial jelly on the wall --hard to nail down. Muller is your ally --then he is not. Make up your mind.
His students made the agenda and the presentation at Dort.
"His students" several generations removed from Calvin and his contemporaries.The Remonstrants initiated the whole affair.

You will not acknowledge that you were mistaken that the Canons of Dort used the term limited atonement. You just bypassed that bit of info altogether. How convenient.
 

Rippon

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The Canons of Dort responded to the propositions of the Remonstrants. If you've ever taken the time to read the Canons of Dort(which it clearly appears you haven't)you would know they didn't boil anything down whatsoever.

Mysteriously,you haven't responded to the above. "Boiled down"? Hardly. Maybe you took a shortcut with Cliffsnotes or something! LOL!
 

Rippon

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LOL yourself. [URL'}http://www.crcna.org/welcome/beliefs/confessions/canons-dort"]Read this[/URL]. Maybe you'll learn something about how wrong you are about not only Calvin, but the Council at Dort as well.
I can't access it here. Perhaps you can give me some salient points.

Wait a minute. I was able to get to it. What is it you are trying to maintain? What things about Calvin or Dort do you think I have been wrong about?
What revelations do you expect I will discover?

So far your batting average is rather poor. You claim Dr.Muller as an ally in your beliefs yet contradict his findings.

You claim there was cleavage between Calvin and the delegates at the Synod of Dort. None exists.

You claimed that the Canons of Dort use the term limited atonement. It does not.
 
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Rippon

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At over 12,000 words??
Well,well,12,000 words doesn't convey anything "boiled-down" --does it? LOL! We can dispense with your condensed view of the Canons of Dort.
 

Yeshua1

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Never argued that there was discontinuity. But essentially, the Council of Dort boiled the argument down to the "five points" and that's all Calvinists have talked about for 396 years since. Calvin's theology is so much more complex than what is discussed here as "Calvinism" as to boggle the mind. Calvin wouldn't claim to be a Calvinist today. He was also wrong about a great deal, including infant baptism, Christ's descension into hell, and consubstantiation. Those who call themselves "Calvinist" today fail to understand what that label implies about them.Because the Council of Dort did, and that is the authority to which most Calvinists point as having "established" doctrinally what they believe. Most Calvinists haven't even read Muller.Whether it's "novel" or not is not the argument. Whether it's valid is the point of discussion. It isn't.Straw man. Logical fallacy. What I said was:Citing Scriptures you misunderstand is not providing biblical support, it is misunderstanding and even misrepresenting Scripture. You know that. You deliberately attempted to misrepresent what I said. That, too, is disingenuous.You adhere to a human doctrine named for the human who established it, and despite Scriptural evidence presented to you on practically an hourly basis, you continue to revere his teachings to Christ's. So what else am I to say? And who is truly an affront to the Savior and Master? One who defends His word? Or one who attempts to claim He spoke in support of a man-made doctrine?The Reformers who Catholics who saw the Doctrines of Grace amid the garbage the middle-ages Church taught, yet failed to abandon the other heresies that some Church taught. So yes, I oppose what the Reformers held to as well.When you call Calvinism "the gospel" as you and many others have done time and time again here, you have indeed attempted to explain God through Calvin, to your detriment.Just as I said ...

this back and forth discussion highlights to me the question MSUT be answered as to what exactly means one is a calvinist?

I maintain that its mainly used here to be those holding to the DoG, calvinistic view of Sotierology, but NOT all of calvin system....

Thise holding to basically all of the system of calvinism, sans the infant baptism/church govt would be Reformed Baptists, but think most holding to calvinism here tend to be more of the "limited" calvinists ones like myself!
 

Earth Wind and Fire

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Atonement is limited by lack of faith. That is, if one doesn't believe, one does not accept Christ's atonement. Calvinists would have it that God has chosen randomly (and I would say capriciously) who will not believe ("vessels for destruction"). God makes no such choice. "Whoever will" come, empowered by the drawing, calling and efficacious grace of the Holy Spirit from God, will come to salvation. That can be anybody on the planet. God did not choose some to be unable to believe


Essentually this is what I believed as a Roman Catholic....and it troubled me.....if Jesus died for the sins of all mankind then all are saved, which the Bible denies. If he died for the sins of all men, unbelief excluded, then he did not die for all the sins of anybody and all must be condemned.
 
At over 12,000 words??
Well,well,12,000 words doesn't convey anything "boiled-down" --does it? LOL! We can dispense with your condensed view of the Canons of Dort.
You don't even remember what I said was "boiled down" do you? Let me ask you this: How many words did Calvin write? Do you know how many published works came from his pen? Let me explain to you in simple, one- two- and a limited number of three-syllable words so even you can understand: John Calvin wrote nearly 50 books, including 45 commentaries, and those were inclusive of five-volume works on both Psalms and Isaiah. The penultimate work that Calvinists love to site, "The Institutes of the Christian Religon," is 944 pages in the English translation. How many words do you suppose that is, alone? Dort's 12,000 words wouldn't represent a thousandth of one percent of Calvin's work, and not a tenth of one percent of what he wrote on what has become known as Reformed theology.

You reveal with this post that you really haven't a clue what you're talking about, you never have, and likely you never will. You dart, twist and turn like mercury, or smoke. When someone posts directly to a point you think you've made, thus making you look foolish or -- God forbid -- wrong, you pretend you said something else, said nothing at all, or you most commonly insult and disparage the other member. The sad reality is, you defend Calvinism vehemently, even venomously, yet you are rapidly proving in this discussion you don't even know what Calvinism is. You can hardly regurgitate with accuracy what you've seen others on this board say. I'll leave others to conclude what that may mean about you.

You don't want discussion. You don't want proof. You want division. I will no longer give it to you.
 
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Rippon

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You don't even remember what I said was "boiled down" do you?
You said in post #52 that "the Council of Dort boiled the argument down to the five points. Don't you remember your own words?

For such a massive display, it cannot very well be called "boiled-down" in any sense.
The penultimate work that Calvinists love to site,[sic] "The Institutes of the Christian Religon," is 944 pages in the English translation. How many words do you suppose that is, alone? Dort's 12,000 words wouldn't represent a thousandth of one percent of Calvin's work, and not a tenth of one percent of what he wrote on what has become known as Reformed theology.
Do you think you are relaying news to me?

For Baptists of the Reformed pursuasion the 1689 or the later Philadelphia Confession are good summaries of Calvinism. I had never claimed that the Canons of Dort were the sum and substance of Calvinism much less the TULIP acrostic.

Most of your post which I did not quote was filled with hate and misdirected anger --because you won't own up to your contradictions which I have painstakingly listed time and again --to which you have not once tried to interact with.

Do yourself a favor --read Muller and get back with me when you have absorbed his material.
 
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Iconoclast

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thisnumbersdisconnected


Atonement is limited by lack of faith. That is, if one doesn't believe, one does not accept Christ's atonement.

If someone believes or not...does not have any effect on the atonement.The Atonement was a Covenant transaction....it was perfect and once for all time.

Calvinists would have it that God has chosen randomly (and I would say capriciously)

This post shows why you are not close to truth at all.You speak condescendingly about Calvinism...and yet you really do not know what you speak of.

NO Calvinist says or believes God does anything randomly...or in your sad comment...."capriciously".

Reformed and others asked you to support your opinions and you are unable to do so.This post shows this clearly.

who will not believe ("vessels for destruction"). God makes no such choice.
Men will not believe...because of sinful rebellion..psalm 14/romans 3

"Whoever will" come,

Those made willing in the day of God's power...gladly come...that is why jn 3 speaks of everyone believing...

empowered by the drawing, calling and efficacious grace of the Holy Spirit from God, will come to salvation.

This group of believers is known as the sheep, the elect, the wheat....
That can be anybody on the planet
.

From our point of view ...it could be as we are not told who God has chosen .So we preach to all men everywhere.
From God's point of view....it is certain-
Those who understand their bibles wrote this in the 1689 confession of faith;

3._____ By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels are predestinated, or foreordained to eternal life through Jesus Christ, to the praise of his glorious grace; others being left to act in their sin to their just condemnation, to the praise of his glorious justice.
( 1 Timothy 5:21; Matthew 25:34; Ephesians 1:5, 6; Romans 9:22, 23; Jude 4 )

4.______These angels and men thus predestinated and foreordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed, and their number so certain and definite, that it cannot be either increased or diminished.
( 2 Timothy 2:19; John 13:18 )

God did not choose some to be unable to believe.

This statement has no place in this discussion...as every manner of cal understands that all men having died in Adam...cannot understand , or submit to the things of God.It takes a supernatural work of God to save.
Essentially I just explained it
,

What you explained is why you have not come to truth yet.We will see it now...in your next statement....You do not believe in a real atonement that actually saves....you and others have invented a potential atonement that is no atonement at all, unless man adds something to it.

You describe a God who does not save...but only makes a possible salvation...man as you describe..determines for himself if he feels like being saved....God in your view becomes a spectator who just observes as he looked forward in time as a spectator, then "learns by observation ...what man wants to do.....then...once man does what he wants to...then in your view...God can predestine what man has left for Him.

This is quite tragic and God dishonoring and goes against who God is.

but the Atonement has the potential -- all who read, please note, the potential
-

Yes...we have read this by others before you..and we reject it as unbiblical.It is your philosophy and what you think should be...only scripture clearly says otherwise.

-
to be effective for the whole world, but the whole world will not believe
,
.....So the world is in control:laugh:

because there will be some who, though drawn, called and exposed to the efficacious grace of God,

There is no one on the planet who can fit this description.....

Hint and explanation........Efficacious grace....is always...EFFECTUAL....

That is why it is called efficacious:laugh:
Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
1._____ Those whom God hath predestinated unto life, he is pleased in his appointed, and accepted time, effectually to call, by his Word and Spirit, out of that state of sin and death in which they are by nature, to grace and salvation by Jesus Christ; enlightening their minds spiritually and savingly to understand the things of God; taking away their heart of stone, and giving unto them a heart of flesh; renewing their wills, and by his almighty power determining them to that which is good, and effectually drawing them to Jesus Christ; yet so as they come most freely, being made willing by his grace.
( Romans 8:30; Romans 11:7; Ephesians 1:10, 11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13, 14; Ephesians 2:1-6; Acts 26:18; Ephesians 1:17, 18; Ezekiel 36:26; Deuteronomy 30:6; Ezekiel 36:27; Ephesians 1:19; Psalm 110:3; Song of Solomon 1:4 )

2._____ This effectual call is of God's free and special grace alone, not from anything at all foreseen in man, nor from any power or agency in the creature, being wholly passive therein, being dead in sins and trespasses, until being quickened and renewed by the Holy Spirit; he is thereby enabled to answer this call, and to embrace the grace offered and conveyed in it, and that by no less power than that which raised up Christ from the dead.
( 2 Timothy 1:9; Ephesians 2:8; 1 Corinthians 2:14; Ephesians 2:5; John 5:25; Ephesians 1:19, 20 )

will deny the offer, for whatever reason no one can imagine, other than God.

Not everyone gets an offer....the reason those persons who hear the gospel and reject it...is a love of sin and rebellion against God.

That does not make God "powerless" over those who deny, it makes them the self-determiner of their own fate
,

wrong...see all the above-

a fate He knew from the beginning they would choose.

again..you describe a spectator

He "foreknew," and those He foreknew in the affirmative of the gospel,

Ah yes...the completely unbiblical use of the biblical term foreknowledge...and yet you want to critique calvinists who understand the terms and the teaching....then you wonder why you do not hold to unconditional election, and particular redemption.:wavey:

He "predestined to become conformed to the image of God" (Romans 8:29). Note that the first thing He did was that He "foreknew." What did He foreknow about them?

This is the classic error.....It is not....WHAT...iT IS NOT WHAT HE KNEW ABOUT THEM.......

IT is WHOM He did Foreknow


He knew the persons themselves...not what...but WHOM:thumbsup:

That they would believe, therefore He predestined those who believe to be "conformed to the image of God."

This is a wicked distortion of the plain text.
It also says those whom He "predestined, He also called" (Romans 8:30). It doesn't say He doesn't call others
,

This now goes to an argument from silence.....it does not say he does not call people who eat asparagus with hollandaise sauce over a turkey omlette either...but what does that have to do with anything...

because at this point, we've narrowed down the group whom Paul addresses as the believers. He calls everyone, but only some will respond.

It does not say that anywhere...this is a complete fabrication.
 

Iconoclast

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You said in post #52 that "the Council of Dort boiled the argument down to the five points. Don't you remember your own words?

For such a massive display, it cannot very well be called "boiled-down" in any sense.

Do you think you are relaying news to me?

For Baptists of the Reformed pursuasion the 1689 or the later Philadelphia Confession are good summaries of Calvinism. I had never claimed that the Canons of Dort were the sum and substance of Calvinism much less the TULIP acrostic.

Most of your post which I did not quote was fiiled with hate and misdirected anger --because you won't own up to your contractions which I have painstakingly listed time and again --to which you have not once tried to interact with.

Do yourself a favor --read Muller and get back with me when you have absorbed his material.

He does not get back to anyone...Reformed asked him to back up his opinions and his response was to speak down to Reformed saying he"felt sorry for him"???? everyone else he calls arrogant ...but then he casually attempts to dismiss you or any other Cal...Jmac or anyone else???
 

Earth Wind and Fire

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He does not get back to anyone...Reformed asked him to back up his opinions and his response was to speak down to Reformed saying he"felt sorry for him"???? everyone else he calls arrogant ...but then he casually attempts to dismiss you or any other Cal...Jmac or anyone else???

But he is a faithful church goer! :smilewinkgrin:
 

Reformed

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thisnumberisdisconnected, it is plain that we are not going to agree on the subject of your opening post. To keep going back-and-forth over it is pointless. I stand behind my words and will let other readers pass judgment on their veracity.

I was heartened to see that you finally cited a source for your prior assertion in your opening post. I will address John Piper’s article in a separate post. I want to focus this post on your critique of John MacArthur’s book “Slave” of which I am intimately acquainted. You wrote:

thisnumberisdisconnected said:
John MacArthur's book "Slave" is a prime example of what I'm talking about, if you want specifics. Throughout the book, MacArthur describes Christian obedience as “pure delight” and “joy-filled.” On page 208, he describes our experience as slaves to Christ as “not partially sweet and partially sour, but totally sweet.” This, despite what the apostle John clearly experienced as recorded in Revelation. But regardless of the fact that there is nothing sweeter than being a slave of Christ, to suggest that our experience is never mixed with bitterness (taste, not attitude) is just plain nonsense. A believer who has lost an unbelieving relative or close friend would be an example. A job loss, a prolonged illness personally experienced in self or close family -- these things serve to progressively sanctify, but is MacArthur going to try to convince us that we must face them with joy and delight, with no negatively expressed emotion mixed in, or else we are in sin? Tell me that isn't what he said.

First, you are wrong when you claim, “Throughout the book, MacArthur describes Christian obedience as “pure delight” and “joy-filled”.” He does equate being a Christian (as a slave of Christ) as joyful in the last chapter of the book, but that is not the theme of the book. I challenge you to support your “Throughout the book” claim. If MacArthur used this language throughout the book, it should be clearly seen in each chapter. As it is, that is not the case.

“Slave” was written to undo what MacArthur labels as a “conspiracy”, whether intentional or unwittingly. The conspiracy is the failure of most English translations in regard to the Greek word doulos. The word means “a slave”. It has no other meaning. To translate it any other way is an unfaithful rendering of the Greek word. He then goes on to describe the Christian life in light of the slave-master relationship.

MacArthur does not ignore the difficulty of living the Christian life. He writes on page 93, “Because the Lord is our Master, we can trust Him to take care of us in every situation and stage of life.” That would include good and bad situations. On page 118 he draws attention to the fact that early Christians were often slaves by position, and sometimes treated harshly. “Early Christians would have been well aware of the abuses a slave could suffer at the hands of an unjust owner. Many first-century believers were slaves themselves, and some of them were subjected to harsh and unfair treatment.”

When you write, “A believer who has lost an unbelieving relative or close friend would be an example. A job loss, a prolonged illness personally experienced in self or close family -- these things serve to progressively sanctify, but is MacArthur going to try to convince us that we must face them with joy and delight, with no negatively expressed emotion mixed in, or else we are in sin?” (emphasis mine) have you forgotten what scripture instructs us to do in light of suffering?

James 1:2 Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials,

Matthew 5:11 Blessed are you when people insult you and persecute you, and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of Me.

While imprisoned for the cause of Christ, Paul wrote: Philippians 4:2-7, "I urge Euodia and I urge Syntyche to live in harmony in the Lord. Indeed, true companion, I ask you also to help these women who have shared my struggle in the cause of the gospel, together with Clement also and the rest of my fellow workers, whose names are in the book of life. Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will say, rejoice! 5 Let your gentle spirit be known to all men. The Lord is near. Be anxious for nothing, but in everything by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known to God. And the peace of God, which surpasses all comprehension, will guard your hearts and your minds in Christ Jesus (emphasis mine)."

Imprisoned and facing death, Paul was able to write, “Rejoice in the Lord always; again I will, rejoice!” He then went on to write be anxious for nothing. Was that a callous remark by the Apostle? Indeed, Paul puts his suffering in context in Philippians 1:29 “For to you it has been granted for Christ’s sake, not only to believe in Him, but also to suffer for His sake”. Whereas no Christian would dare label the Apostle Paul as callous and unfeeling over his command to “rejoice” and “be anxious for nothing” in the midst of suffering, apparently you must think that of John MacArthur because he does not qualify his words.

Back to page 207 of “Slave”. In context, MacArthur writes: “Slavery to Christ is much more than mere duty; it is motivated by a heart filled with loving devotion and pure delight. Because God first loved us and sent His Son to redeem us from sin, we now love Him – longing from the heart to worship, honor, and obey Him in everything. Our slavery to Him is not drudgery but a joy-filled privilege made possible by His saving grace and the Spirit’s continued working in our lives. As loyal citizens and grateful children, we now serve our King and our Father out of hearts brimming with thankfulness. To be Christ’s slave is a wonderful and blessed reality; to be His “doulos is not partially sweet and partially sour, but totally sweet.””

The above quote from “Slave” is axiomatic. It does not ignore individual suffering, but views all things in the Christian life through the lens of being a slave to Christ. Indeed in the next paragraph MacArthur compares bondage with freedom. He describes the yoke and burden of the Christian life as light. So, he does understand the sufferings Christians endure, but he views them through the lens of Christ.

If MacArthur’s intent was to write a book on Christians and suffering, and he only gave lip service to the hardships of suffering, then your criticism would be valid. But that is not the intent of his book; ergo your criticism is invalid. Actually I am quite surprised that a person who writes so well cannot understand the theme of the book and what the author is trying to convey.
 
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Earth Wind and Fire

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Actually I am quite surprised that a person who writes so well cannot understand the theme of the book and what the author is trying to convey.

perhaps you should be surprised that DCONN even read the book knowing his apparent disapproval of Reformed theology. Have you asked him why he would even read a John Macarthur book to begin with?
 

Aaron

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The OP is subjective, anecdotal, biased, and without any convincing proof to support its thesis. It attempts to reference Calvin and Spurgeon without quoting either. Two words in the first sentence, "I've decided", say more about the OP than the OP does about Calvinism. The OP is nothing more than an opinion piece, an editorial.



Which Calvinists are careless? Which Calvinists are unbalanced in their theology? Which Calvinists deny that "faith is the requirement of God for salvation"? Apparently the author of the OP is not acquainted with the Reformed (Calvinist) teaching, "Sola Fide".

I am a Calvinist preacher and I certainly emphasize the need to believe the Gospel message. The Calvinist pastors and elders I rub shoulders with would use the label "heresy" to describe the belief that sinners are saved solely by election and without justification by faith. The Philippian jailer was told, "Believe in the Lord Jesus,and you shall be saved" (Acts 16:31). The Calvinist understands that only the elect will exercise faith (belief), but faith must be exercised notwithstanding.

Hit pieces, whether they come from Calvinists or Arminians, preach only to the choir. They accomplish little else.
:thumbs::thumbs:

TND, I was going to engage you here, but looks like Reformed is taking you to school. :wavey:
 

Earth Wind and Fire

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Calling Servetus "righteous" should sound alarms even for the noncalvinist.

Evade yes.....Mikey was swiftly moving in the direction of Uniterianism and writing publically regarding his distain for the Trinity. He would have been better served by going to the Muslem Turks for sanctuary.
 

prophet

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Calling Servetus "righteous" should sound alarms even for the noncalvinist.

He deserved the death penalty for what?

“The arrest of Servetus in Geneva, where he did neither publish nor dogmatize, hence he was not subject to its laws, has to be considered as a barbaric act and an insult to the Right of Nations.” Voltaire

Maybe his Medical discoveries were too advanced?

Were his maps too correct?

His explanation of the Trinity doctrine, was it too non-Catholic?

Or, is the truth this...

Jn 16:2-3
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues:yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
3 And these things will they do unto you, because they have not known the Father, nor me.

Jn 8:44
44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own:for he is a liar, and the father of it.

?
 
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