No, incarnation
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The Two Natures of Christ
- Thread starter Martin Marprelate
- Start date
He was God, equal to God He was quoting. " ye are gods: to the human lost Jews ,May I refer you to John 5:18?
So how could they claim blasphemy if scripture said it
37818
Well-Known Member
What do you see to be a difficulty?
". . . whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." -- Revelation 13:8.
It is my understanding is the foundation of the world is at the creation of man, the beginning of mankind (John 3:16).
". . . since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. . . ." -- Hebrews 9:26.
That a name is removed from that book because one does not believe in God's Son. (1 John 5:4-5; Revelation 3:5)
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37818
Well-Known Member
You know it is the incarnate Son of God who died and arose from the dead. Psalms 2:7 is a prophecy of Him being the firstborn from the dead. Acts 13:33. Hebrews 1:5-6.
With respect, Just read the verse: John 5:18. Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kll Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God.'
So to the Jews at least, to be a Son did not automatically imply subordination.
Thank you for your reply, and thanks especially for quoting Scripture, which is most refreshing.
If I may deal with the second one first: Hebrews 1:5-6. 'For to which of the angels did He ever say: "You are My Son, today I have begotten you"? And again: "I will be to Him a Father, and He shall be to Me a Son."........' There is no time-frame here, as indicated by the word 'ever.' My view is that both these statements were issued in eternity.
'But again when He brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him."' This refers to the incarnation (Luke 2:13) but it does not indicate that the previous verse does.
Your quotations from Romans, Colossians and Revelation don't seem to impact on what I wrote; perhaps you would explain further.
The most important verse is Acts 13:33-34. 'God has fulfilled this for us their children, in that He has raised up Jesus. As it is also written in the second Psalm, "You are My Son, today I have begotten You."
And that He raised Him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, He has spoken thus, "I will give You the sure mercies of David."' Again, I don't see that the two verses need to be connected in time (though I can see how you might). Jesus was 'raised up' in eternity when He was begotten of God; He was 'raised up' on the cross to die, and 'raised up' again on the Third day. The quote from Isaiah 55:3 references the Resurrection, but I don't see that Psalm 2:7 does.
But elsewhere (post#31) you write of the Lord Jesus as the 'eternal Son.' With this I absolutely agree. What exactly is the nature of our disagreement?
37818
Well-Known Member
A day never refers to eternity. Psalms 2:7; Hebrews 1:5.
I am but human, so have human natures, jesus was both God and Man, so has both natures! How can jesus be fully Human if has no human nature in Him?
Because the Scriptures do not use the body of our Lord in the manner in which you seem to use it as if He had two intellects, two wills, two “natures” (using modern definition)... Rather, body is termed as John states, that seen and handled.
Just as the first Adam was perfect in body prior to the fall, so was the body of Christ: 100% human with all the needs to maintain healthy (hunger, pain, sleep, grasp, hold, reflexes,...), but the intellect, the will the eternal breathed into Adam was delivered by God as is stated in Like 1, “35And the angel answered her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you; therefore the child to be borne will be called holy—the Son of God.”
The hypostatic union is not kept if the 100% God had in some manner to conquer the 100% man. It would void the birth as being “the Son of God.”
The Lord Jesus Christ was never internally in conflict with Himself or with the Father.
Therefore, 100% does not include what modern folks term as nature, but must include all that made the 100% physical body (as the first Adam) in which we call the Christ.
How are you defining "nature"?
That is exactly were folks run off the rails, cliff, road, ...
Matthew 26:37-38. 'And He took with Him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee, and He began to be sorrowful and deeply distressed. Then He said to them, "My soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death. Stay here and watch with Me......"'
Luke 22:41. '......And He was withdrawn from then about a stone's throw, and He knelt down and prayed, saying, "Father, if it is Your will, take this cup from Me; nevertheless, not My will but Yours be done.
Then an angel appeared to Him from heaven, strengthening Him......' Wouldn't you like to know what that angel did for Him? Because whatever it was, it didn't make all the bad stuff go away. So what happened? He said, "Yes!" Jumped up, did a couple of fist-pumps, a few press-ups and off He went? No! No! '......And being in agony, He prayed more earnestly. Then His sweat became like great drops of blood falling to the ground.' Can this be our Lord and Saviour, God in the flesh, horrified and bewildered at the prospect of the ordeal through which He must pass? Yes! Yes! On a night when it was cold enough to need a fire in the High Priest's courtyard (Luke 22:55), our Lord sweats profusely; the psychosomatic reaction of a human being to impending trauma! And this trauma was something more than physical, it was spiritual. He knew full well what was coming to Him. That He must go through this ordeal utterly alone. There was no angel to strengthen Him at Golgotha. The fellowship with the Father would be completely broken during those hours and He must hang there totally alone with all the sins of His people laid upon Him.
He was equal with God, Read the Aramaic verses, He said so.
He also said speaking to men "ye are elohim"
so their argument was futile
It was not the creation of man but the creation of mans souls
I think you will find that in Jewish thought a son was always (or should always be) subordinate to a father, but a relationship existed where the son was also a direct representation of the father (as he was begotten or of the father's seed).
Jesus' statement would be viewed as a claim he was equal in kind (a representation of) the Father. It does not negate subordination.
37818
Well-Known Member
Do you have a Biblical text for that distinction?
We really have NO true understanding on what it meant for the sinless and Holy Son of God to experience ytje full blunt of the wrath of God the Father, and to be forsaken in a unique sense while hanging upon the Cross!
By declaring that God was his father, to the jews, Jesus was claiming full equality to being also God!
John 10 and Psalms 82 he was quoting
37818
Well-Known Member
What has judges being called "gods" have to do man and his soul? The first man did not have a soul until God gave him life. Genesis 2