The two witnesses... TWO candlesticks...?

Sure, in the King James. Other translators use "lampstand". This is an example of the King James translators attempting to translate the scriptures into terms familiar to their readers instead of the literal wording. A decision they made as translators with a responsibility to their readers to make a comprehensible translation. Every translator must make that decision in some way as they go along translating; can't be helped. But our scriptures that talk of feeding the flame with olive oil are proof positive that lamps, rather than candles, are meant.

By the way, thanks for the interesting researchers above who found examples of candles from very early history. Its amazing what one can learn around here!

 

you're welcome!

 

Some folks believe that the two lamps/candlesticks are the two houses of Israel.

 

I'm inclined to say (in jest) that any time you find BobRyan and Paul of Eugene agreeing on an interpretation it must be a thing fixed from all time to be certainly true, but yeah, some people say that.

 

I have to admit - that did shake me up a bit.

In Christ,


Bob

 

Agree with you, Tam.

 

Thanks Lady Eagle!!

I was beginning to think I was the only one left who believed that!!!

Have a great day.

 

Wild and unnecessary speculations about the identity of these two witnesses have filled many pages. Enoch and Elijah are by far the leaders in this theological guessing game. Given the fact that both are murdered and savagely treated, it is highly unlikely that the two witnesses are historical figures from Israel’s past. The Lord Jesus, Himself, states, that the living "will not be persuaded" to repent "even if someone rises from the dead (Luke 16:31)." A point proved by His own resurrection. Equally, given that these two witnesses are murdered, it is extremely unlike God to resurrect faithful giants like Moses, Elijah, Enoch or any other great figure from the OT only to have them murdered in the streets of Jerusalem. Another point that argues against past historical figures, particular Elijah, concerns the ministry of the two witnesses.

The ministry of Elijah is specifically defined. Malachi 4:5-6 states,

Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord. He will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children and the hearts of the children to their fathers, so that I will not come and smite the land with a curse.

What exactly is Malachi predicting here? The Lord Jesus helps us understand the meaning of this text. He states in Matthew 17:11, "Elijah is coming and will restore all things…." Literally, "Indeed, Elijah is coming and he will restore all things." This demands that John the Baptist was in a figurative sense, Elijah. However, the verse also supports the conclusion that the real literal Elijah is going to come. Jesus summaries Elijah’s mission: to restore all things. Elijah is going to bring reconciliation among the people of Israel. Now the reader must pay close attention to the Lord’s words. Elijah will restore all things. Notice Elijah will not try to restore. Elijah will not desire to restore, but in fact, Elijah will restore all things. Such a ministry is not reported to be a part of the ministry of the two witnesses. It is therefore best to see the two witnesses as two future individuals whom God will use in ministry reminiscent of Moses and Elijah (for reason to be stated below).

Taken from the Revelation Commentary

 

These are the two witnesses which are also eluded to as the two lamp stands. They represent the Law (Moses) and the Prophets (Elijah). Their meaning is what is so varying and misconstrued!

As for an earlier comment that said candles were not invented at the time that Revelation was written is HIGHLY flawed! Candles were present as early as ancient Egypt, though there ingredients were quite different. Yet the best translation in this Revelation verse would be 'lamp stand' rather than 'candle stick' for the purposes of interpretation.

 

tamborine lady sez:

Nope! You aren't by yourself, but I suspect that many others, like me, just refuse to get into these overly ambitious "spiritualizing" interpretations of God's word.

JGrubbs sez:

These are my picks, since they are the only two to my knowledge that did not DIE a physical death, but were translated into eternity.

 

J Grubbs said:Equally, given that these two witnesses are murdered, it is extremely unlike God to resurrect faithful giants like Moses, Elijah, Enoch or any other great figure from the OT only to have them murdered

The Bible says:

Heb-9-27: And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

Since Enoch and Elijah did not die, but were both "taken" up to heaven, i think it is very likely that they too will have to fulfill the scriptures!!

Peace!!

Tam

 

Enoch and Elijah did not die ????

The scripture records that Enoch was not found because God took him(Gen.5:24). Paul records the same event by saying that he "was not found, because God had translated him" (Heb.11:5).

Enoch was not found because God took him, or "translated" him. The Bible does not say Enoch went to heaven when he was translated. Instead it says he was not found.

This Greek word for "translate" is the same Greek word rendered "carried over" in Acts 7:16: Jacob died and his body was "carried over" -- transported, translated -- to Sychem where he was buried.

That is why Moses said God took Enoch. God removed -- translated -- him so he was not found. God took Enoch and buried him.

God did the same with Moses (Deut. 34:6).

Enoch's days were three hundred and sixty-five! That's as long as Enoch lived.

 

Sorry, but God did not do the same thing with Enoch that he did with Moses.

It is recorded that Moses died! (Duet 34-5) THEN, God took his body and buried it!

Just because you study Greek doesn't make you right!!

Tam

 

Bump

 

Enoch died, too, along with all the other folks mentioned in the previous verses (Hebrews 11: 13).


Since Enoch "walked with God" he won't die the second death (Rev 20:6) - from which there is no resurrection.

 

Just for clarity sake, the Greek words do not teach that Enoch died. There is no verse that says Enoch died. To say so is merely ones interpretation, but that interpretation does not fit the text. The Bible, in the Hebrew, simply says that Enoch "walked with God, and he was not, for God took him" No mention of death. If one wants to believe that Enoch died, that is their business, but one cannot say that the Bible says he died.

Bro Tony

 

Bro Tony

"By faith Abel..." - Heb. 11:4

"By faith Enoch..." - Heb. 11:5

"By faith Noah..." - Heb. 11:7

"By faith Abraham..." - Heb. 11:8

"These all died in faith, not having received the promises...." - Heb. 11:13, kjv.

 

The two witnesses are a representation of the overcomers.

It is the spirit within the elect. primarily two features being expressed as "wisdom and understanding".

two is the number of witness.
seven is the number of perfection.

both figuratives represent the Lord Jesus christ. afterall its the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ.

Isa 11:2 And the spirit of the LORD shall rest upon him, the spirit of wisdom and understanding, the spirit of counsel and might, the spirit of knowledge and of the fear of the LORD;

the seven spirit that come out of the throne of God. Where is the throne? within the elect.

again the two features singled out by Job...

Job 28:28 And unto man he said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that [is] wisdom; and to depart from evil [is] understanding.

or proverbs..

Pro 3:19 The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

or even Jesus being described as...

Joh 1:14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth. (understanding and wisdom)


the two witnesses. is the spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ within the Elect.

the book of revelations is about the revelation of the Lord Jesus Christ WITHIN THE ELECT.

The sons of God who contain the seven spirits.

this is not any OT saint..they physically died.

this about the NT Elect who contain the spirit of the Lord Jesus Christ WITHIN THEM.

 

Hi Me2. That was a very good post, but all you did was muddy the waters.

The 2 witnesses have nothing to do with 7 spirits,or the New testament Elect etc.

The bible says that Enoch and Elijah did not die. Thats good enough for me!

Why must we twist the scripture because we WISH it backed up our theory?

2nd Pet.3-16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

We need to read the word and take it for what it says.

Working for Jesus,

Tam

 

tamborine lady,

simply said..the two witnesses are the flesh body and the spirit within.

when we see man.
we are always seeing "two" people. (not just one)

the two "witnesses" are the 1) spirit of the Lord Jesus christ within the 2)body of the resurrected Elect.


Me2