The Unbeliever

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by whatever:
What does He infallibly rescue us from, if not danger? If we are not lost then how could we be saved?

The Lord infallibly rescued me from the danger of hell when I trusted Him. Had I not trusted Him, I would have eventually gone to hell. That makes perfectly good sense in a non-Calvinite context.

But if, as Calvinism teaches, I was predestinated to go to heaven before I was ever born, and God predestinated and willed to infallibly bring me to faith and keep me out of hell, then I was never for one second of my existence ever in any danger of going to hell whatsoever.

This is a very crucial point to be made, for it turns Calvinism on it's head. The fact is, all who have been converted to real faith in Christ at one time saw themselves on the road to hell. Even those who later fall into the error of Calvinism were, if truly converted, at one time convinced they were going to hell and thus trusted Christ.

If Calvinism be true, then everyone who was ever converted was converted on the basis of a false premise and a false conviction, namely, that he stood in danger of going to hell. But if Calvinism be so, none of the elect - either before or after coming to faith - were ever in any minute danger of going to hell.

Just get to mulling that over in your mind when you lay your weary head down on the pillow tonight.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[2BHizown]

Are you telling me that you were in no danger of hell before conversion? Say what?

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by 2BHizown:
Are you telling me that you were in no danger of hell before conversion? Say what?

No I am not tellng you that I was in no danger of going to hell before I was converted. I was absolutely in danger of going to hell before I was converted and would have gone had I not been converted.

What I said is that, IF CALVINISM IS TRUE, then those who, in the Calvinite scheme of things, were predestinated from the foundation of the world to go to heaven were never in any danger whatsoever of going to hell. This is an inescapable conclusion from the doctrines proposed by Calvinism.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[whatever]

Mark, to put it plainly, you have convinced yourself of nonsense. The fact that your rescue was determined from eternity past does not make it a non-rescue. Christ's death on our behalf was determined beforehand. Surely you would not argue that His death wasn't really an act of obedience.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Whatever;

That's nonsense. What does He infallibly rescue us from, if not danger? If we are not lost then how could we be saved?

I'm puzzled about just what you believe. On one hand you seem to be a Calvinist. Yet on some points you seem to be some what different than other Calvinist. If you believe that predestination is unalterable then you believe that all the predestined elect will be saved.
I believe you have quoted this before in defense of your election;

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Claiming we have been chosen from before the foundation of the world. I questioned you, about it before I think and you didn't have an explanation for those two little words where it says we are chosen "in Him".
Are you saying that God chose us "in Him" and we weren't saved? If so then how did we get in Him, and out of Him, then being lost, be predestined to be in Him and still be in danger of hell fire. If we are assured by the unalterability of predestination then there never was any danger and we didn't need saving.
Plainly how can we be in danger of hell fire and be unalterably predestined to be saved at the same time. Are you saying that sometimes we are lost even though we are predestined. If so then God's predestining of us could not be unalterable. Maybe you believe there are two destinies.
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

[2BHizown]

Since they're not born with a mark declaring they are elect they would be in the same danger of hell as you were. God at this point has not called all the living elect to HImself yet. This occurs at different times of life, determined by Him. We are all condemned until we are born again! Calvinism, the doctrines of grace are true! God saves sinners! Did you believe? You have then experienced HIs mercy and grace! Be thankful!

 

[whatever]

Originally posted by ILUVLIGHT:
I'm puzzled about just what you believe. On one hand you seem to be a Calvinist. Yet on some points you seem to be some what different than other Calvinist. If you believe that predestination is unalterable then you believe that all the predestined elect will be saved.

Hi Mike,

I don't claim to speak for all Calvinists. Some probably wish I would shut up, lol! But Calvinists differ in the way we explain things, just like Arminians do. And we don't always agree about all of the implications of what we believe. I do believe that all of the predestined elect will be saved. I do not believe that all of the predestined elect are already saved.

I believe you have quoted this before in defense of your election;

Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

Claiming we have been chosen from before the foundation of the world. I questioned you, about it before I think and you didn't have an explanation for those two little words where it says we are chosen "in Him".
Are you saying that God chose us "in Him" and we weren't saved? If so then how did we get in Him, and out of Him, then being lost, be predestined to be in Him and still be in danger of hell fire. If we are assured by the unalterability of predestination then there never was any danger and we didn't need saving.
Plainly how can we be in danger of hell fire and be unalterably predestined to be saved at the same time. Are you saying that sometimes we are lost even though we are predestined. If so then God's predestining of us could not be unalterable. Maybe you believe there are two destinies.
In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

Sorry, I don't remember that exchange. Being "chosen in Christ" is different than being "in Christ". We were chosen before time, but we are placed "in Christ" in time. Before that time comes we are lost, when that time comes we are saved.

And, our rescue having been predetermined does not make it not a rescue. Christ's obedience on the cross was predetermined and yet it was still obedience.

 

[ILUVLIGHT]

Hi Whatever;

Being "chosen in Christ" is different than being "in Christ".

That's what I don't understand, just how is it different. We wouldn't be in Christ unless we were chosen. You see I believe we are chosen in Christ. Not from before the foundation of the world as Christ, but we are chosen while we are in Him. That is what this verse is saying.
As far as I know Eph 1:4 is the only verse that says we are chosen in Him and Calvinism hangs there entire doctrine of election on this one verse.

Would you give an explanation of just what you believe the "in Him" is all about?
I may be physcially blind, but not spiritually blind. The "IN HIM" is there obviously for a reason. Please explain those two words from your own perspective.

In The Light Of Christ;
Mike

 

[Mark Osgatharp]

Originally posted by whatever:
Mark, to put it plainly, you have convinced yourself of nonsense. The fact that your rescue was determined from eternity past does not make it a non-rescue.

My friend, you are the one who has convinced yourself of nonsense. You say that you were infallibly predestinated to be saved and yet argue that you were in some sort of danger of going to hell.

Christ's death on our behalf was determined beforehand. Surely you would not argue that His death wasn't really an act of obedience.

Of course it was an act of obedience. That is why it was predestinated to happen. The Father commanded it. Christ accomplished it. It couldn't possibly have been any different because the immutable character of God decreed and gauranteed it.

By contrast, my participation in the plan of salvation was dependent on my belief in it; and since I am fallible I stood in danger of eternal damnation until the moment I trusted my soul into the care of the infallible Christ, who will without fail keep all who ever put their trust in Him.

Mark Osgatharp

 

[whatever]

Mark,

You believe that predetermined obedience is obedience but predetermined rescue is not rescue. If I said that my belief and repentance couldn't possibly have been any different because God decreed it and guaranteed it then you would likely call me a robot. Either Christ is a robot or you are wrong.