The Universal Wrath of God

[trustitl]

Wrath of God

Jacinth,

A believer in Jesus Christ becomes a child of God. God will not send his wrath down on them. This is not to say that life will be a bowl of cherries. Like I said earlier God will chasten us, but he also will test our faith by "fire". He gives the picture of a refiner using fire to purify gold and make it more beautiful and valuable.

It is important to see it is the mercy of God that makes this possible. In other words we did deserve his wrath.

I Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
Children get the inheritance at some point in the future. God in his wisdom wants his children to be found "worthy". This worthiness is basically having us be so full of love for God for his mercy and faithfulness. Not only does God test our faith, he gives us more power as our faith grows.

4 To an inheritance incorruptible, and undefiled, and that fadeth not away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Our faith, purified by fire is actually going to be honored when Jesus returns!

6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice, though now for a season, if need be, ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth, though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

 

[Jacinth]

trustitl,

A believer in Jesus Christ becomes a child of God. God will not send his wrath down on them.

We are only children of God insofar as we are renewed in Him. Needless to say, we all have the old man of sin yet within us.

Like I said earlier God will chasten us, but he also will test our faith by "fire". He gives the picture of a refiner using fire to purify gold and make it more beautiful and valuable.

Indeed, and such imagery of fire from Heaven is precisely identified as God's wrath throughout the Bible. No?

 

[Jacinth]

It would appear that many of us would rather not believe that God is just towards us. Very interesting.....

 

[trustitl]

Wrath of God

Fire is not always wrath: 2 quick examples come to mind.

Pillar of fire.
Burning bush.


If you think you could live through the wrath of God I think you are mistaken.

 

[trustitl]

Wrath of God

I agree that we are delivered from wrath insofar as we have died with Christ, but I fail to see how this is at odds with the plain fact that Romans 1:18 declares that we are all yet ungodly to some extent.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Paul is talking about lost people in 1:18. A believer does not hold the truth in UNrighteousness.

1:19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

This is usually called general revalation.

He goes on in the rest of chapter 1 and talks about the effect of denying God.
He then restates that these people did all these things knowing better.

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

Chapter 2-3 show that there is no difference between the Jew and the Gentile.

Chapter 4 show how we get to be righteous:
Rom 4:22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness. 23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it was imputed to him; 24 But for us also, to whom it shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

Rom 5:11 "but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement."

The atonement was what held off the wrath of God in the OT. We have now received it.

5:19 "by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."

Heb 8: 12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.

Heb. 10:11 "And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified."
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[trustitl]

Jacinth:
"We are only children of God insofar as we are renewed in Him. Needless to say, we all have the old man of sin yet within us."


NO we do not have the old man of sin yet within us!

Col 3:9 "Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; 10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him"

 

[Jacinth]

trustitl,

Fire is not always wrath

I never said it was. What I said was that the imagery of fire from Heaven is used throughout the Bible as a symbol of God's wrath. Context will determine if I am right, of course. Let's take a look...

Hbr 12:27 And this [word], Yet once more, signifieth the removing of those things that are shaken, as of things that are made, that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.


Hbr 12:28 Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear:


Hbr 12:29 For our God [is] a consuming fire.

Here we see that God is the fire that destroys (through His wrath, of course) that which is perishable so that only that only the imperishable core remains. In short, God's fiery wrath is purificatory.

The same idea is expressed in 1 Corinthians 3:15:

"If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

If you think you could live through the wrath of God I think you are mistaken.

The old man cannot survive the wrath of God. The new man cannot be born without the wrath of God.

 

[Jacinth]

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

Paul is talking about lost people in 1:18. A believer does not hold the truth in UNrighteousness.

Rather, ungodliness is, by definition, holding the truth in unrighteousness. Think about it.

 

[Jacinth]

NO we do not have the old man of sin yet within us!

Col 3:9 "Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; 10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him"

Trustitl, if you are interpreting this passage correctly, then what sense is there in Paul imploring us to put off the old man (Eph 4:22)? If the old man is no more, why would Paul speak of it as a clear and present danger? If the old man no longer exists, why did Paul confess to being a carnal slave to sin (Romans 7:14)? Think about it.

Peace.

 

[David Lamb]

Hi David Lamb,
While I agree that we are righteous inasmuch as as we trust in Christ, but I don't think that our faith in Christ diverts God's justice away from us. Rather, it is through faith that we are delivered out of wrath. Faith is nonebut that whcih allows us to walk through the tryign fire of God.

But God's justice would not have Him punish the same sins twice. If Christ bore the sins of those who trust in Him (and there are plenty of bible verses that say He did), then they have been dealt with. Praise God! I know that all my sins, past present and future, have been dealt with in this way. 1 John 1.7 tells Christians that the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses them from all sin. You mention trying fire. Certainly Jesus promises His followers that they will have trials in this life. In John 16.33 He says:

"These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world."

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He doesn't say that such tribulation is a result of God's wrath upon them.

So you are denying that there is ungodliness in all of us? Or do you deny that all ungodliness is to be met by God's wrath?

I think you would have to read quite a lot into my earlier posts to get either of those two things from them. Of course there is still ungodliness in me. In Romans 7, Paul writes about himself still doing things he should not, and leaving undone things he should do. In verses 25-27, he writes:

23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members. 24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God––through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

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So just to emphasise and make clear: I am not denying that there is ungodliness in all of us, or that all ungodliness is to be met by God's wrath. But God's wrath against the sins and sinfulness of those who trust in Jesus Christ was poured out on the Saviour, at Calvary's cross.

I see it much differently. It is precisely through Christ's death that we can emerge as new creatures from the trials of God's wrath. Do you see where I am coming from?

Certainly Jesus enables His people to come through all kinds of trials, but for those who trust Him, He has already taken His Father's wrath upon Himself.

 

[Steven2006]

I'm not sure this will answer your question, but I thought these verses might help.


Jhn 3:36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."



Rom 5:9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath {of God} through Him.



1Th 1:10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, {that is} Jesus, who rescues us from the wrath to come.



1Th 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

 

[David Lamb]

Trustitl, if you are interpreting this passage correctly, then what sense is there in Paul imploring us to put off the old man (Eph 4:22)? If the old man is no more, why would Paul speak of it as a clear and present danger? If the old man no longer exists, why did Paul confess to being a carnal slave to sin (Romans 7:14)? Think about it.

Peace.

I think you are confusing two separate, though connected, things: justification, and sanctification. Justification refers to that which Jesus Christ did on the cross for His people, by taking the guilt and punishment for their sins upon His sinless self, and clothing them in His perfect righteousness. This is what some Christians refer to as "The Great Exchange". Because of it, God the Father sees the Christian as perfectly righteous, even though that Christian continues to sin from time to time.

Sanctification is that striving increasingly to live our lives in accordance with God's laws. We don't do that to be saved from God's wrath - Christ has already done that - but because we are saved. No one in this life can become perfectly sanctified, and the extent to which the Christian goes against God's laws is what Paul refers to as "the old man".

A Christian cannot become more justified than he was on the day of his conversion, but he should increase in sanctification.

Going back for a moment to the original post, can I point you to several bible quotes that say to Christians that because of Jesus Christ and His atoning work at Calvary, they do not have to bear the wrath of God?

9 For they themselves declare concerning us what manner of entry we had to you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God, 10 and to wait for His Son from heaven, whom He raised from the dead, even Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come." (1Thessalonians 1:9-10)

For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. (1Thessalonians 5:9)

1 And you He made alive, who were dead in trespasses and sins, 2 in which you once walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit who now works in the sons of disobedience, 3 among whom also we all once conducted ourselves in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, just as the others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved). (Ephesians 2:1-5)

7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. 8 But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him. 10 For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. (Romans 5:7-10)

"He who believes in the Son has everlasting life; and he who does not believe the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." (John 3:36)


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[trustitl]

Trustitl, if you are interpreting this passage correctly, then what sense is there in Paul imploring us to put off the old man (Eph 4:22)? If the old man is no more, why would Paul speak of it as a clear and present danger? If the old man no longer exists, why did Paul confess to being a carnal slave to sin (Romans 7:14)? Think about it.

Peace.

Paul is not imploring us to do something in Eph. 4:22. Start back in verse 20 and you will see that he is telling us what has happened to believers. I am not a greek scholar (I'm not any kind of scholar actually) but verse 22 is is in the aortist infinitive and does not signify the time of action according to my Key Word Study Bible.

I can see how one could read this verse to be something we have to do but you seem to be ignoring the CLEAR way it was stated in Col 3:9. That the old man is gone is an important part of the Gospel and is a theme that appears in Pauls writings many times.

Eph 5:8 For ye were therfore darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light.

Gal. 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Rom. 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth you should not serve sin."

Romans 7 is not Paul talking about himself as a new creation. Look at 7:18 and you will see that it is him talking about him when he WAS in the flesh. Romans 8:9 tells us that we are "not in the flesh, but in the Spirit". So Paul is talking about himself when he was the old man. Paul is NOT saying that as a new man he cannot "perform that which is good" (7:18) and that he is in "captivity to the law of sin which is in my members" (7:23). He just finished a whole chapter (6) talking about how we are no longer under the bondage of sin because we were crucified with Christ.

Now you and anybody else that reads this is probably getting ready to disprove me because you think I am into sinless perfectionism and go around telling people that I don't sin. Not so. When I sin I take responsibility for it as a new man and don't go around blaming the old man for it like most people.

Too many people have turned sanctification into some work that we need to do. Paul says we need to just believe something has happened to us:

Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead INDEED unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

When a southernor sees a storm coming he says "I reckon it's going to rain" because it is going to. He doesn't make it rain because he reckons it.

Read Romans 7 with the husband being "the flesh" and you will see what he is saying.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Jacinth:
"We are only children of God insofar as we are renewed in Him. Needless to say, we all have the old man of sin yet within us."


NO we do not have the old man of sin yet within us!

Col 3:9 "Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; 10
And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him"

GE
Trustiti, I doubt your sincerity for no moment! Yet, I think you are a bit naive. Have the Lord come into your life recently only? It is beautiful to see your enthusiasm, it's so sprightly. But don't be discouraged the day the very Lord who saved you, will bring you down to earth to try your faith further. Then remember Paul said, "having put off the old man WITH HIS DEEDS!" That old man of yours and of every born again child of God is still very much alive and active and will be till the day you enter the portals, be assured!

The difference between the born again child of the Father and the unregenerate, is not that the Father's child no longer has an 'old man', but exactly that now for the first time in his life he has become aware he still has that old man waring within himself against the New Man Christ he has put on! The unregenerate does not lament his old man - he thinks of him as god almighty! Where is the unregenerate who will bewail his self as would and surely does the regenerate? There's no such person on earth! So rather rejoice that there is this battle going on within yourself between the old and the New Man - ever trusting in the Stronger, the Victor over death and sin -- over verily my own self, the old man!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

And that makes me think of something else. You have put on the New Man - you haven't put on yourself a second you, but Christ! It is a fact and matter, of faith. We cannot take these things literally! So if it was you who put on Christ, where are you now? You are your old man still, and it is Christ in you, and yes your very old man in Christ, engaged in warfare within your own self against your own sinful nature and against the devil from without. That is Christian Faith - the choice for the suffering of Christ, and to be co-crucified with Him so as to be co-raised with Him into New Life and the joy of His fellowship within you. If we do not suffer with Christ, we cannot share in the joying of Christ, says Peter most emphatically! That is because of the presence and reality of your old man as much as the presence and reality of: "Christ within you".

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

This is a wonderful topic to dwell upon through this forum, a very pleasant privilege, because it is the Gospel, simply!

Yet we also need those less enjoyable topics, like the current thread on Acts 20:7.

 

[Eric B]

I've been wondering lately; why exactly is God's wrath expressed as physical suffering? Look at
A Place Called Hell By Dr. George H. Alquist, Jr. http://www.swordofthelord.com/archives/PlaceCalledHell.htm

darkness 2 Peter 2:4, Jude 13 example: giant onyx caves in West Virginia; people get scared

fire Matthew 18:8, Luke 16, Jude 7, Revelation 20:10, "furnace", not consumed; example: friend burned in car wreck

helpless and overwhelmed. They will flounder and flail their arms and try to keep themselves upright. But they don’t know which way is up and which way is down, because they can’t see anything as a point of reference. They will splash around in the "lake of fire" with nothing to put their feet upon, nothing to grab hold of, no life preservers, no one to cry out to for help.

Bottomless Pit Revelation 20:3
The people who go to Hell are cast into a place where there is no bottom. They tumble and fall, tumble and fall, tumble and fall in the blackness of the darkness, in the flames of the fire. They never have a place to rest, never have anything to grab hold of, never have a place to stand on, never have a place to sit down. They never have anything they can touch to find any reality!

Place of Torment weeping and gnashing of teeth;
They will be in such torment that they grind their teeth, but the teeth never grind down. And it is constant!

Fear Matthew 8:12 13:42 Luke 16:19—31 Revelation 14:11

Those in Hell are not only experiencing all these horrible things; they also have fear–unbelievable fear, heavy fear, powerful fear, all-consuming fear–because there is no love to cast out the fear. People in Hell are tormented in the flames and tormented by fear–ghoulish, horrible, terrifying nightmares that bring on a fear that can be felt. They are afraid night and day for all eternity, with a horrible, gripping, incapacitating fear.
I don’t know what phobia you may have, but whatever it is, it will be with you for all eternity in Hell; and it will be magnified a hundred thousandfold.
Do you fear bugs? Then get ready, because you will be scared to death of them in Hell. You will want to get away, but there will be nowhere to go. You will want the phobia to stop, but it won’t stop. Fear will be all-consuming.
You will take your phobias and nightmares to Hell where they will be magnified. You will live with them for all eternity! You will cry out as this man did in Luke 16, "Have mercy on me," but there is no mercy in Hell.

Place of Bondage Matthew 22:13 Second Peter 2:4; example: individuals put into sensory deprivation chambers hallucinate like crazy.
My friends, hallucinations will be a reality in Hell. Feet and hands will be bound; you won’t be able to move. Your feet will neither walk nor run, and you won’t be able to wave your arms.

Revelation 14:11 says there is "no rest"–never a moment to unwind. Daniel 12:2 describes Hell as a place of "shame and everlasting contempt." In Hell there is nothing but deep, dark, crippling depression. Sinners take all their shame with them to Hell, and they relive their shame moment after moment after moment. There is nothing but the depths of depression in Hell.
My friend, you think there is a self-esteem problem here? Well, Hell has the worst self-esteem problem. You will abhor yourself, detest yourself, despise yourself, hate yourself...have contempt for yourself and live with your shame and depression for all eternity.

Place of Memory Luke 16 (opportunities to get saved; preacher's faces)
Place of Desires Luke 16 cont'd (drop of water)
Physical Bodies ''
Place of Destruction Second Thessalonians 1:9
I John 1:5 no light–just darkness.
First John 4:8 no love –only hatred, bitterness, jealousy and anger.
Matthew 19:17 no goodness in Hell, not one little bit of resemblance of good.
Romans 15:33 no peace
John 14:16 no comfort
John 17:17 no truth in Hell. Everything will be suspect, for the father of lies will be there.
Psalm 62:12 no mercy.
Psalm 16:11 no joy in Hell.

Murderers are there; you will be scared of them. Drug addicts are there; you will be scared of them. Tormentors and torturers and ax murderers and chain-saw murderers are there; you will be frightened of them. Even though they can’t cut you or kill you, the fear of them will torment you.
Hitler will be there. Attila the Hun will be there. All the accountable, yet unconverted, crazies and demented of ages gone by will be there. Everyone there will be screaming, weeping, wailing and gnashing his teeth–and threatening. You will be able to hear them, but you won’t be able to see them.

This is basically the standard conservative view of Hell, right? He even laments like other IFB types: "Billy Graham no longer believes Hell has fire".
With all of this other stuff mentioned; that's why he doesn't. The fire is seen as a symbol of all of that other suffering. But it seems one or the other is not enough to fundamentalists.
This guy practically outdoes Dante! He takes scriptures, and draws out of them things not actually described anywhere in scripture. (Again, this is why others have come to see the fire as symbolic). And he is not even consistent in one point. Notice, your hands will be flailing around, and you're floundering, tumbling and falling; yet they're also "bound" and you can't move.

Anyway, this scenerio is basically the reason we have so many debates on Calvinism vs Arminianism (Are people actually preordained to this place "for God's glory"?), works salvation and OSAS (do we escape this by faith alone, or faith plus works, and can we fall back into it? Also, ideas such as Millennial Exclusion), and others bending the rules to try to get more people out of it (the "Crossless salvation" debate going on in the Baptist section; Lordship salvation, debates over "those who never heard"; maybe some of them will be shown mercy; maybe it's only open rejection of Christ; and not simply not professing Him, sectarian views such as annihilation, Armstrong's salvation for all those not called now, etc. There's also a view that says that the fiery "destruction" in all of those scriptures was referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in AD70, thus ending the Law with its condemnation, and spreading grace unconditionally to all). Conservatives blast all of this, but isn't it understandable given the great details they give of it?

So what do you all think is the reason why God's "justice" is fulfilled by all of this; especially the fire. What "glory" is seen in horror? Mark Talbot says justice is making people feel the way they made other people feel in the sins they committed against them. But that would seem to suggest a fireless interpretation. "Judgment" in the Bible always did seem to be more about immediate destruction of people's lands and lifestyles on earth. Why after we leave the earth is it all about physical discomfort?

 

[Jacinth]

hi David Lamb,

I

think you are confusing two separate, though connected, things: justification, and sanctification.

I often hear that criticism, but I am not in fact confusing

Justification refers to that which Jesus Christ did on the cross for His people, by taking the guilt and punishment for their sins upon His sinless self, and clothing them in His perfect righteousness.

I disagree. God is just and as such can never act unjustly. Needless to say, having someone else punished instead of the person that deserves it is unjust. Nay, christ did not die so that we don't have to die. He died so that we might die with Him!

Sanctification is that striving increasingly to live our lives in accordance with God's laws.

Sanctification is the working out of salvation. You cannot have one without the other.

 

[Jacinth]

trustitl,

Paul is not imploring us to do something in Eph. 4:22. Start back in verse 20 and you will see that he is telling us what has happened to believers. I am not a greek scholar (I'm not any kind of scholar actually) but verse 22 is is in the aortist infinitive and does not signify the time of action according to my Key Word Study Bible.

Let's scroll back a bit further.

Eph 4:1 ¶ I therefore, the prisoner of the Lord, beseech you that ye walk worthy of the vocation wherewith ye are called,

Paul is imploring us to walk in the new life, no?


Eph 4:2 With all lowliness and meekness, with longsuffering, forbearing one another in love;


Eph 4:3 Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

Paul is imploring us to do these things.


Eph 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

Paul is imploring us to do these things so that we may become perfected in Christ.

Eph 4:17 ¶ This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

Again, Paul is imploring us to walk as new creatures.


Eph 4:22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;


And so Paul sums it up by imploring us to cast off the old man.

Romans 7 is not Paul talking about himself as a new creation. Look at 7:18 and you will see that it is him talking about him when he WAS in the flesh.

V.18 does not support your reading. In fact, Paul says "I am carnal". He does not say "I was carnal". Where did you get these ideas?

 

[Andre]

Justification refers to that which Jesus Christ did on the cross for His people, by taking the guilt and punishment for their sins upon His sinless self, and clothing them in His perfect righteousness.

I disagree. God is just and as such can never act unjustly. Needless to say, having someone else punished instead of the person that deserves it is unjust. Nay, christ did not die so that we don't have to die. He died so that we might die with Him!

I probably share your disagreement with Mr. Lamb's statement, but I am somewhat confused by what you say.

Following the ideas of theologian NT Wright, I believe that, as per Romans 2, there is indeed a future justification "by works" for Christians. Even though his ideas are arguably complex, I believe that Wright's {"present justification by faith" - "future justificaiton by works"} model makes the best sense of the scriptural evidence. I will not elaborate further on what this model consists in, except to say that he argues against the idea that Christ's righteousness is imputed to us, as most probably believe.

However, I do believe that when Christ was struck by God, as per Romans 8 where there is reference to sin being condemned in Jesus' flesh, the intent was to do "what had to be done" to defeat the power of sin and give us the Spirit so that, in the end, the "Spirit-caused" works we do will, in fact justify us.

I view the condemnation of sin in the flesh of Jesus in more or less the following sense: there is something about the very nature of God's created universe that left God no choice in respect to dealing with the Adam problem - He had to somehow "lure" sin into the flesh of sinless Jesus and there in some way, neutralize it (and I am indeed suggesting that "sin" as a "force" in the world can indeed be "cornered" in one place). In other words, God could not simply "wave his hand" to forgive sin - He had to defeat it "where it lives" - in fallen human flesh.

The preceding paragraph may engender a lot of confusion in the reader - there should be a lot more supporting explanation from me. However, returning to your point, I see the condemnation of sin in the flesh of Jesus not so much as a "judicial" act as a physical act - the means by which God "de-activates" the very real power of sin in the world. I am not entirely sure if I am speaking to your point, but if one sees things this way, the problem of which you speak - punishing the innocent in place of the guilty - becomes not so problematic. Why? Because the atonement may not really have been a "judicial" act of substitutionary punishment accomplished in some abstract domain, but rather the only mechanism that God had at his disposal to break the power of sin.

I admit that I am going out on a bit of limb here and am not sure if this idea can be sustained by the Scriptural evidence. If it can't I am sure this will be pointed out......