The Universal Wrath of God

[trustitl]

Wrath of God

GE

I am glad you appreciate the enthusiasm. After 19 years of marriage, my love, appreciation, and enjoyment of my wife is greater than ever. The same is true of my being a child of God for 20 years. I won't tell you the fires I have been through, but they are producing what they are supposed to.

Still no comment on
Col 3:9 "Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds; 10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him".

The only thing I can think it means to you is that you think the Colossians must have attained a DEEP spiritual state that we are to try to get to. Maybe it was through prayer, fasting, bible memory, attending revival meeting, not listening to bad music or watching movies....

Some think Paul is telling US to put off the old man. Exactly how are we supposed to do that? Through prayer, fasting, bible memory, attending revival meeting, not listening to bad music or watching movies....

The Colossians were probably just a bunch of regular believers (like you and me)being attacked by a buch of false teachers (like you and I are) saying they needed to do a bunch of stuff (touch not, taste not, handle not). These things make people look spiritual and "have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body: not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh."

GE: So if it was you who put on Christ, where are you now?

A few verses come to mind:

Col.1:13 "delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:"
Col 3:3 "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God."
Eph. 2:6 "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
II COr 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

 

[trustitl]

Wrath of God

Jacinth,

You asked "Where did you get these ideas?"

Does that show a little interest? :thumbs:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Trustiti,
You gave us Ro6:6, and that opened up to me maybe, the flaw in your thinking! Here's how you quoted, "Rom. 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth you should not serve sin.""
Now look where you put the emphasis. Here's my amateur view of the Greek, that it puts the emphasis on another place! It does so by way of the structure of the word, "CO-crucified WITH ---(HIM)!" - ('SYN-estaurohtheh') Here, is WHERE and WHEN, "our old man was crucified and put off" in Jesus our Place-Taker, and here's where you make your mistake! It's not in ourselves!
Also Paul's use of the plural shows you it happened through and in Christ who Corporately Represents the whole Church, not that I in myself could put off my old man - although I have put it off - by faith, through faith, in faith, so that every second of my life I am still confronted with this very alive old man of ME myself! So Paul found his comfort and assurance in the single truth, - again speaking as the Church - "Our life is hid IN CHRIST - not in ourselves, but - IN GOD!" This is where the charismatics have gone off the road, the hypocrites!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

if it was you who put on Christ, where are you now?

A few verses come to mind:

Col.1:13 "delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:"
Col 3:3 "For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God."
Eph. 2:6 "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:"
II COr 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

GE
Again, the "in Christ" remains valid afterwards and until the end, so your added emphasis (the red and the small print), should actually all be added to the significance of "in Christ"!

"Behold, all things are become new" ... to what do you look; yourself? You are looking at and you are looking to Christ for all things become new in Him and through Him --- and unto, HIM and HIS glory!!

 

[trustitl]

GE,

I think we are in agreement!

I have never said I crucified myself. I said I was crucified with him. Or was it Paul that said that? Either way, no matter where it happened, it happened and now all things are new. Done deal.

Now I am going to:

Reckon myself to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ my Lord.

Serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Fulfill the righteousness of the law.

Walk in the Spirit, and not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Not use my liberty for an occasion to the flesh.

Walk worthy of God, who hath called me unto his kingdom and glory.

Count it all joy when I fall into divers temptations.

Gird up the loins of my mind, be sober.

I had better stop now :thumbs:

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Andre
"I admit that I am going out on a bit of limb here and am not sure if this idea can be sustained by the Scriptural evidence. If it can't I am sure this will be pointed out......"

GE
You are a man of integrity! You are surely going to find your answers.

 

[trustitl]

Originally posted by David Lamb
Justification refers to that which Jesus Christ did on the cross for His people, by taking the guilt and punishment for their sins upon His sinless self, and clothing them in His perfect righteousness.

Websters 1828
JUST'IFY, v.t. [L. justus, just,and facio, to make.]

1. To prove or show to be just, or conformable to law, right, justice, propriety or duty;
2. To pardon and clear from guilt;

There are more than one way to look at justification. We need to apply the proper definition at the right time.

Matt. 11:19 "But wisdom is justified of her children."

Luke 7:29 "And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God being baptized with the baptism of John"


Job 32:2 "Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled, because he justified himself rather than God."

Jer. 3: 11 "And the LORD said unto me, The backsliding Israel hath justified herself more than treacherous Judah."

James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works


Originally posted by Andre
Following the ideas of theologian NT Wright, I believe that, as per Romans 2, there is indeed a future justification "by works" for Christians.
Our works will only jusitfy us in the sense of #1 above.

In the sense of #2 it is only by faith.
We are saved by grace through faith and
are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time. (I Peter 1:5).

But it is important to remember that a faith that saves is not without works.

I John 2:9 "He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now. "

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

GE,

I think we are in agreement!

I have never said I crucified myself. I said I was crucified with him. Or was it Paul that said that? Either way, no matter where it happened, it happened and now all things are new. Done deal.

Now I am going to:

Reckon myself to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ my Lord.

Serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Fulfill the righteousness of the law.

Walk in the Spirit, and not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Not use my liberty for an occasion to the flesh.

Walk worthy of God, who hath called me unto his kingdom and glory.

Count it all joy when I fall into divers temptations.

Gird up the loins of my mind, be sober.

I had better stop now :thumbs:

GE
I for very good reason quote your full post. Mark your last words of it - May I sum up everything you have said in one word? From now on Trustiti shall fight the good fight! Everything you say is the present reality of your life ... your old self in your same self and the New Man Christ you have put on, in mortal conflict. You don't fight phantoms with Christ and in Christ - your enemy number one is you; and mine, is I. Try read your confession as if this isn't true?

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The two big misconception of justification or regeneration are that thereafter good works (obedience) are immaterial; and, that thereafter the old man (sin) is immaterial.

 

[Jacinth]

The Second Death

edit: wrong thread

 

[David Lamb]

Originally posted by David Lamb
Justification refers to that which Jesus Christ did on the cross for His people, by taking the guilt and punishment for their sins upon His sinless self, and clothing them in His perfect righteousness.

Websters 1828
JUST'IFY, v.t. [L. justus, just,and facio, to make.]

1. To prove or show to be just, or conformable to law, right, justice, propriety or duty;
2. To pardon and clear from guilt;

There are more than one way to look at justification. We need to apply the proper definition at the right time.

Sorry, trustiti, but (assuming, perhaps wrongly, that you were disagreeing with my words quoted by you in blue) I don't understand what your point is. We would be wrong to assume that words used in English translations of the bible always have exactly the same connotations as those given in a secular dictionary. Nevertheless, in this case, both the meanings you quote from Webster's dictionary do apply. By His death, Christ presents His people, those who believe in Him, as just, and conformable to God's justice. Colossians 1.19-22:

19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight.

​

And He certainly pardoned His people and cleared them from guilt. Isaiah 53.11:

He shall see the labor of His soul, and be satisfied. By His knowledge My righteous Servant shall justify many, For He shall bear their iniquities.

​

But of course, I recognise that I might have misunderstood you....

 

[trustitl]

Universal wrath of God

I wasn't really agreeing or disagreeing. Or maybe I was doing both.

First of all, I think knowing what the word in English means is as important as knowing Greek. These words have meanings that the KJV translators chose very carefully. If we put a different meaning to them then we are going to misunderstand the true meaning. I think "justify" is an example of needing to know what the English word means.

You said: "Justification refers to that which Jesus Christ did on the cross for His people, by taking the guilt and punishment for their sins upon His sinless self, and clothing them in His perfect righteousness."

I pointed out that this word does not always mean this. The clearest example has to be Luke 7:29 :
"And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God being baptized with the baptism of John"

God did not need Jesus to do anything on the cross for him. Plus, in this usage the "justifiers" were publicans, often used as the best example of sinners, hence the the first defintion has to be applied. By taking John's baptism they were proving or showing that God was right.
1. To prove or show to be just, or conformable to law, right, justice, propriety or duty;

I think this is how Jame is using the word because the works you and I do are not able to do any "clearing of guilt" for us. WE merely "prove or show ourselves to be just, or conformable to law, right, justice, propriety or duty" by doing works suitable by someone who has truly been made alive unto God.

God is the one who has justified us in the sense of #2.
Col.1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:

MEET, a. [L. convenio.] Fit; suitable; proper; qualified; convenient; adapted, as to a use or purpose.