And the point is that this shows there are at least two different eras.
That's the point.
God bless.
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The Wall Came Tumbling Down
- Thread starter OldRegular
- Start date
And the point is that this shows there are at least two different eras.
That's the point.
God bless.
We as believers are the habitation of the Holy Spirit. But Paul in Verses 21, 22 goes beyond the individual believer to the body of believers. That body is elsewhere by both the Apostles Paul and John called the Bride of Jesus Christ and by the Apostle John the New Jerusalem.
The Bride which is the church will be raptured prior to the Tribulation. The wall you refer to has nothing to do with the Rapture occurring or not. It showed that a new Dispensation was coming. God dealt with the O.T. believers in a different way than He does those who believe in this current period of time, this current dispensation of Grace. God in His Grace has given to His church, the Bride a unique time. A time when we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit. That did not occur in the O.T. times. In fact the Indwelling Spirit came at Pentecost upon all of the church. Not only were they all indwelt but they were filled with the Holy Spirit. We can lose the filling we can never lose the indwelling. With that Spirit we are able to represent ourselves before God in confession of sins. We still need a mediator too but that Mediator is Christ Jesus the Lord, seated at the right hand of the Father till His enemies be made His footstools, that is what the Tribulation is all about that and the redemption of the Earth.
Truth is you are too clever for your own good. The OP tells when the wall was broken. revmwc understands when it was broken. You are so impressed with your own ego that you refuse to understand anything that does not stroke your ego.
Wait a minute, you mean you actually agree in part with something I said. Well it is raining here so I guess it must be!
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
That cannot be supported by Scripture.The Bride which is the church will be raptured prior to the Tribulation.
Sure it does. The dispensational doctrine says that wall will be rebuilt. Are you claiming Jesus Christ sacrifice on the Cross was limited?The wall you refer to has nothing to do with the Rapture occurring or not.
Darby showed a new dispensation was coming reading Isaiak 32, claiming new revelation. Darby was a false prophet. In the Old Testament he may have been stoned!It showed that a new Dispensation was coming.
God has always dealt with people through HIS Grace That Grace was first manifested when HE made the initial sacrifice to cover the rebellion of Adam and Eve.God dealt with the O.T. believers in a different way than He does those who believe in this current period of time, this current dispensation of Grace.
The Church is composed of all the redeemed of all time!God in His Grace has given to His church, the Bride a unique time.
You might try reading John 20:22.In fact the Indwelling Spirit came at Pentecost upon all of the church.
Not only were they all indwelt but they were filled with the Holy Spirit. We can lose the filling we can never lose the indwelling. With that Spirit we are able to represent ourselves before God in confession of sins. We still need a mediator too but that Mediator is Christ Jesus the Lord, seated at the right hand of the Father till His enemies be made His footstools that is what the Tribulation is all about that and the redemption of the Earth.
The Tribulation has nothing to do with His enemies being made His footstool. His Second Coming does. Didn't you atgue earlier that the purpose of the tribulation was to redeem the earth. Surely you are not saying the earth is an enemy of GOD1
The Church is composed of all the redeemed of all time! You might try reading John 20:22.
Here it is:
John 20:22
King James Version (KJV)
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
That does not nullify this:
Acts 1
King James Version (KJV)
4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.
5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
Notice the Lord tells them they will receive the promise of the Father, which, He said, they had heard from Him.
He makes it clear that in view is the Coming of the Comforter by contrasting it with John's baptism, which, if you review Matthew 3, has John prophesying about Christ Who will Baptize with the Holy Ghost and Fire.
Amazingly, some of the disciples, after being told they will be Baptized with the Holy Ghost, ask about the aspect of God's promises that Peter fought for in the Garden of Gethsemane:
The disciples were not of the opinion that the promised Kingdom would not come. How could they, the Lord had spent three years teaching about it.
And you won't see the Lord deny it would come, just that when it is coming was not for them to know:
6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
The disciples were not of the opinion that the promised Kingdom would not come. How could they, the Lord had spent three years teaching about it.
And you won't see the Lord deny it would come, just that when it is coming was not for them to know:
7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
Here we see that the coming of the Comforter was not until Pentecost. It would not be until after He had come that the disciples would be empowered to witness the Mystery of the Gospel.
What we can say with more than certainty is this is not what happened here...
John 20:22
King James Version (KJV)
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
We know this because not had the Comforter not come, but Christ had not left:
John 16:7
King James Version (KJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
This...
John 20:22
King James Version (KJV)
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
...is no different than this...
John 15
King James Version (KJV)
4 Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
...it was speaking of a future time. Which of the disciples abided in Christ?
Not one.
That did not stop the Lord from teaching them, and He said the Comforter would remind them of His teachings when He came:
John 14:25-26
King James Version (KJV)
25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
However, while I agree with that portion of this statement...
The Church is composed of all the redeemed of all time! You might try reading John 20:22.
I agree that ultimately the Church is composed of all of the redeemed of all time. But not until the Eternal State, where there will be One Shepherd, and On Fold.
God bless.
Originally Posted by revmwc View Post
The Bride which is the church will be raptured prior to the Tribulation.
OR response.
"That cannot be supported by Scripture."
It has been in many post but some can't see it or refuse to see it.
Originally Posted by revmwc View Post
The wall you refer to has nothing to do with the Rapture occurring or not.
OR response
"Sure it does. The dispensational doctrine says that wall will be rebuilt. Are you claiming Jesus Christ sacrifice on the Cross was limited?"
Not in my dispensational doctrine. The sacrifice will begin in unregenerate Israel during the Tribulation. They already have in some places began to offer sacrifice. The sacrifice is offered in the Tribulation not the Millennial Kingdom, where do you get that teaching from Hoekba?
Originally Posted by revmwc View Post
It showed that a new Dispensation was coming.
OR response.
"Darby showed a new dispensation was coming reading Isaiak 32, claiming new revelation. Darby was a false prophet. In the Old Testament he may have been stoned!"
Paul showed it coming even spoke of it as the Dispensation of Grace. His point here in the Ephesians 2 passage with the wall was showing no more need for sacrifice to be offered and no more need for believers to need a Priest to represent them.
Originally Posted by revmwc View Post
God dealt with the O.T. believers in a different way than He does those who believe in this current period of time, this current dispensation of Grace.
"God has always dealt with people through HIS Grace That Grace was first manifested when HE made the initial sacrifice to cover the rebellion of Adam and Eve. "
But in the O.T. they had to offer sacrifice for their sins, do you now offer sacrifice for your sins? He dealt in Grace to every generation of man in every age. It is the means of worship which changed. The Jews were required to sacrifice for their atonement and other things, we are not thus God dealt with O.T. believers in a different way.
Originally Posted by revmwc View Post
God in His Grace has given to His church, the Bride a unique time.
OR response:
"The Church is composed of all the redeemed of all time!"
So do you believe that the Holy Spirit indwelt every believer of all time?
That He filled them as long as they had sin confessed. Then why are we told that we are the Temple of God and yet there is never any reference to amy O.T. believer having the Holy Spirit or Spirit of God dwelling in them. Instead we see that the Holy spirit came upon them.
We have anew age a time in which the Holy Spirit indwells and fills us, that is the dispensation of Grace. We no longer need a Priest to represent us before God in confessing our sins and we no longer offer a sacrifice, that is a unique ERA!
Originally Posted by revmwc View Post
In fact the Indwelling Spirit came at Pentecost upon all of the church.
OR response
"You might try reading John 20:22.
22 "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came."
So Thomas missed out on the Holy Spirit you believe. He wasn't there was he?
Acts 2:2-4
2 "And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."
Pentecost the Harvest of weeks or festival of sewing, for the Jews it commemorates the giving of the Law at Mt. Sinai, for the church it is the giving of the Holy Spirit to believers. To separate events for two separate times and two separate ways God deals with mankind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by revmwc View Post
Not only were they all indwelt but they were filled with the Holy Spirit. We can lose the filling we can never lose the indwelling. With that Spirit we are able to represent ourselves before God in confession of sins. We still need a mediator too but that Mediator is Christ Jesus the Lord, seated at the right hand of the Father till His enemies be made His footstools that is what the Tribulation is all about that and the redemption of the Earth.
OR response:
"The Tribulation has nothing to do with His enemies being made His footstool. His Second Coming does. Didn't you argue earlier that the purpose of the tribulation was to redeem the earth. Surely you are not saying the earth is an enemy of GOD1"
Did you miss the last words in the sentence "...that is what the Tribulation is all about that and the redemption of the Earth."
At the end of the Tribulation Christ defeats the unholy trinity, His enemies. Notice something, Revelation 19, 19 "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."
This is His second coming, He defeats satan, the beast and false prophets His enemies. Who have been wrecking havoc upon the earth for 3 1/2 years. God wrath has been being poured out upon mankind for 7 full years. But notice here that the only two cast into the Lake of Fire at this point are the beast and false prophet and they are cast in alive. The remnant of unbelievers is slain with the sword, these are the goats of Matthew 25:32-33,
32 "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left."
But they aren't sent to the Lake of Fire just yet.
Revelation 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." this states clearly that the unbeliever doesn't go to the Lake of Fire immediately but must go to Hell and await final sentencing.
That comes 1000 years after the second coming as we see:
Revelation 20:7-15
7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
It is clear the Kingdom spoken of last a Millennium that is 1000 years. That it is upon the earth with Christ reigning in Jerusalem upon the Throne of David as O.T. prophets foretold. Death and notice this "HELL" are cast into the Lake of Fire 1000 years after the second coming. Revelation is very clear on that. The Tribulation with the unholy trinity, the second coming and the 1000 year reign, folowed by the Great White Throne, the earth renovated by Fire and the New Jerusalem coming to rest upon the earth.
The step I didn't place in was that the church is snatched away in the early part of Revelation and we see her in Revelation 19 the Bride, coming in full attire with Christ at His coming, that would mean she had to have been snatched away sometime before the Tribulation.
The Bride which is the church will be raptured prior to the Tribulation.
OR response.
"That cannot be supported by Scripture."
It has been in many post but some can't see it or refuse to see it.
Originally Posted by revmwc View Post
The wall you refer to has nothing to do with the Rapture occurring or not.
OR response
"Sure it does. The dispensational doctrine says that wall will be rebuilt. Are you claiming Jesus Christ sacrifice on the Cross was limited?"
Not in my dispensational doctrine. The sacrifice will begin in unregenerate Israel during the Tribulation. They already have in some places began to offer sacrifice. The sacrifice is offered in the Tribulation not the Millennial Kingdom, where do you get that teaching from Hoekba?
Originally Posted by revmwc View Post
It showed that a new Dispensation was coming.
OR response.
"Darby showed a new dispensation was coming reading Isaiak 32, claiming new revelation. Darby was a false prophet. In the Old Testament he may have been stoned!"
Paul showed it coming even spoke of it as the Dispensation of Grace. His point here in the Ephesians 2 passage with the wall was showing no more need for sacrifice to be offered and no more need for believers to need a Priest to represent them.
Originally Posted by revmwc View Post
God dealt with the O.T. believers in a different way than He does those who believe in this current period of time, this current dispensation of Grace.
"God has always dealt with people through HIS Grace That Grace was first manifested when HE made the initial sacrifice to cover the rebellion of Adam and Eve. "
But in the O.T. they had to offer sacrifice for their sins, do you now offer sacrifice for your sins? He dealt in Grace to every generation of man in every age. It is the means of worship which changed. The Jews were required to sacrifice for their atonement and other things, we are not thus God dealt with O.T. believers in a different way.
Originally Posted by revmwc View Post
God in His Grace has given to His church, the Bride a unique time.
OR response:
"The Church is composed of all the redeemed of all time!"
So do you believe that the Holy Spirit indwelt every believer of all time?
That He filled them as long as they had sin confessed. Then why are we told that we are the Temple of God and yet there is never any reference to amy O.T. believer having the Holy Spirit or Spirit of God dwelling in them. Instead we see that the Holy spirit came upon them.
We have anew age a time in which the Holy Spirit indwells and fills us, that is the dispensation of Grace. We no longer need a Priest to represent us before God in confessing our sins and we no longer offer a sacrifice, that is a unique ERA!
Originally Posted by revmwc View Post
In fact the Indwelling Spirit came at Pentecost upon all of the church.
OR response
"You might try reading John 20:22.
22 "And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:
23 Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
24 But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came."
So Thomas missed out on the Holy Spirit you believe. He wasn't there was he?
Acts 2:2-4
2 "And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Ghost, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance."
Pentecost the Harvest of weeks or festival of sewing, for the Jews it commemorates the giving of the Law at Mt. Sinai, for the church it is the giving of the Holy Spirit to believers. To separate events for two separate times and two separate ways God deals with mankind.
Quote:
Originally Posted by revmwc View Post
Not only were they all indwelt but they were filled with the Holy Spirit. We can lose the filling we can never lose the indwelling. With that Spirit we are able to represent ourselves before God in confession of sins. We still need a mediator too but that Mediator is Christ Jesus the Lord, seated at the right hand of the Father till His enemies be made His footstools that is what the Tribulation is all about that and the redemption of the Earth.
OR response:
"The Tribulation has nothing to do with His enemies being made His footstool. His Second Coming does. Didn't you argue earlier that the purpose of the tribulation was to redeem the earth. Surely you are not saying the earth is an enemy of GOD1"
Did you miss the last words in the sentence "...that is what the Tribulation is all about that and the redemption of the Earth."
At the end of the Tribulation Christ defeats the unholy trinity, His enemies. Notice something, Revelation 19, 19 "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh."
This is His second coming, He defeats satan, the beast and false prophets His enemies. Who have been wrecking havoc upon the earth for 3 1/2 years. God wrath has been being poured out upon mankind for 7 full years. But notice here that the only two cast into the Lake of Fire at this point are the beast and false prophet and they are cast in alive. The remnant of unbelievers is slain with the sword, these are the goats of Matthew 25:32-33,
32 "And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:
33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left."
But they aren't sent to the Lake of Fire just yet.
Revelation 20:5 "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection." this states clearly that the unbeliever doesn't go to the Lake of Fire immediately but must go to Hell and await final sentencing.
That comes 1000 years after the second coming as we see:
Revelation 20:7-15
7 "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire."
It is clear the Kingdom spoken of last a Millennium that is 1000 years. That it is upon the earth with Christ reigning in Jerusalem upon the Throne of David as O.T. prophets foretold. Death and notice this "HELL" are cast into the Lake of Fire 1000 years after the second coming. Revelation is very clear on that. The Tribulation with the unholy trinity, the second coming and the 1000 year reign, folowed by the Great White Throne, the earth renovated by Fire and the New Jerusalem coming to rest upon the earth.
The step I didn't place in was that the church is snatched away in the early part of Revelation and we see her in Revelation 19 the Bride, coming in full attire with Christ at His coming, that would mean she had to have been snatched away sometime before the Tribulation.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
revmwc,
You really need to learn to use the quote feature!
You really need to learn to use the quote feature!
revmwc,
You really need to learn to use the quote feature!
Okay how is that done?
Copy paste works for me right now.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Okay how is that done?
Simple!
Copy paste works for me right now.
The person making the remark is clearly identified!
Simple!
The person making the remark is clearly identified!
But how do you quote it in a box?
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
But how do you quote it in a box?
quote in brackets followed by /quote in brackets and you get.
followed by
Okay how is that done?
Copy paste works for me right now.
When you hit the quote button to respond, look at the first thing in the box, above what you will be quoting, and you will see code that looks like this...
(QUOTE=revmwc;2224612)
I have changed the brackets [ ] to parentheses to disable the code. If I left them you wouldn't be able to view them.
At the end of the quote that appears there is this...
(/QUOTE)
Everything that you put in between them will appear in the quote.
So copy and paste...
(QUOTE=revmwc;2224612)
...before each segment you want to respond to, and copy and paste...
(/QUOTE)
...after each segment, and it will give who the OP was and also the link back to the original post it came from.
If you hit the QUOTE prompt in the icons above the quote box that looks like a cartoon caption symbol, this...
(QUOTE)(/QUOTE)
...appears (changed brackets to parentheses again).
Anything in between these will appear in a quote, and the only difference is the code is limited. You can actuallput a name in it if you want by changing it to...
(QUOTE=Paul the Apostle)(/QUOTE)
I will do this with the brackets back in place to give an example:
Paul the Apostle said:Peter, you really goofed by showing respect of persons...
If you quote this post and look at the code as it shoud be here, you will see how it is done. The only difference between the two codes I have shown you is the information after the = sign, one just says Paul the Apostle, the other has time-code in it that directs one back to the post it came from. Everything after = is seen in the quote.
Hope that helps.
God bless.
Last edited by a moderator:
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
And after that bit of drama back to the OP!
Ephesians 2:11-22
11. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14.For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Many if not most pre-trib-dispensationalists claim to believe in progressive revelation. In the above passage of Scripture GOD through the Apostle Paul tells us that Jesus Christ has broken down that wall between Jew and Gentile that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
The Apostle further tells us that we Gentiles are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. That Building is the Church, the total number of those redeemed by the Blood of Jesus Christ, and is composed of believing Jew and believing Gentiles an habitation of God through the Spirit.
In Revelations 21:1-4 we read the words of the beloved Apostle John And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
We see in this passage the New Jerusalem, the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ, coming to the New Heavens and New Earth where GOD will dwell with them. This is perfectly consistent with what we read in Ephesians 2:22.
The Wall was broken by Jesus Christ through HIS sacrificial death on the Roman Cross. But sadly there are those who would rebuild that wall from the rubble of "splintered" Scripture; that wall whose destruction was accomplished on the Cross.
And after that bit of drama back to the OP!
Originally Posted by OldRegular View Post
Ephesians 2:11-22
11. Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12. That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
13. But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14.For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16. And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
17. And came and preached peace to you which were afar off, and to them that were nigh.
18. For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.
19. Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20. And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21. In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22. In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
Many if not most pre-trib-dispensationalists claim to believe in progressive revelation. In the above passage of Scripture GOD through the Apostle Paul tells us that Jesus Christ has broken down that wall between Jew and Gentile that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
The Apostle further tells us that we Gentiles are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit. That Building is the Church, the total number of those redeemed by the Blood of Jesus Christ, and is composed of believing Jew and believing Gentiles an habitation of God through the Spirit.
In Revelations 21:1-4 we read the words of the beloved Apostle John And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
We see in this passage the New Jerusalem, the Church, the Bride of Jesus Christ, coming to the New Heavens and New Earth where GOD will dwell with them. This is perfectly consistent with what we read in Ephesians 2:22.
The Wall was broken by Jesus Christ through HIS sacrificial death on the Roman Cross. But sadly there are those who would rebuild that wall from
Except we see what Paul is referencing by seeing verse 5. "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"
He abolished the requirements of sacrifices offered for sin that the Law required. He also in His death paid for the sins of the whole world.
Matthew 27:50-51;
50 "Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;"
God and most likely Jesus Himself literally ripped the Middle curtain of Partition in the Temple. Until that time in Israel only the Chief Priest could enter into the Holy of Holies to offer sacrifices for mankind. But now the King Priest Jesus has paid the full price for all sin. Man no longer needs a priest to represent Him for Jesus is our advocate with the Father and we are able to go to Father ourselves in Prayer and confess our sins. We are able to go to Him ourselves and call upon Him for salvation we need no earthly priest.
1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
Jesus is the "Hilasmos" (propitiation) that is the means of appeasing, He appeased God the Fathers requirement for sin with His death on the cross. For the believer and for the "holos" that is whole or complete "kosmos" that is according to thayer, #6 the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ.
His atoning sacrifice brought atonement for the sins of all mankind. Each of which is totally depraved. Each must individually be saved and that comes when they hear the Gospel and the Holy Spirit beckoning and respond to that call. They can resist the call and I have seen many do just that.
But the wall of Partition Paul refers too is the Veil in the Temple torn by Christ when He gave up the Spirit form His earthly body. Opening access to God for all mankind, Jew and Gentile alike. God never excluded Gentiles from His plan of salvation even in Nation Israel. They too brought sacrifices but they weren't allowed in the temple only the outer court. But neither Jew nor Gentile who was allowed to pass through the middle wall of Partition in the Tabernacle or Temple except the Jewish High Priest, they represented the People before God. Now Christ as our advocate in Heaven represent us and we are able to approach the Throne of God, that is what Paul is saying here.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
Except we see what Paul is referencing by seeing verse 5. "Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"
He abolished the requirements of sacrifices offered for sin that the Law required. He also in His death paid for the sins of the whole world.
Matthew 27:50-51;
50 "Jesus, when he had cried again with a loud voice, yielded up the ghost.
51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;"
God and most likely Jesus Himself literally ripped the Middle curtain of Partition in the Temple. Until that time in Israel only the Chief Priest could enter into the Holy of Holies to offer sacrifices for mankind. But now the King Priest Jesus has paid the full price for all sin. Man no longer needs a priest to represent Him for Jesus is our advocate with the Father and we are able to go to Father ourselves in Prayer and confess our sins. We are able to go to Him ourselves and call upon Him for salvation we need no earthly priest.
1 John 2:2 "And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world."
Jesus is the "Hilasmos" (propitiation) that is the means of appeasing, He appeased God the Fathers requirement for sin with His death on the cross. For the believer and for the "holos" that is whole or complete "kosmos" that is according to thayer, #6 the ungodly multitude; the whole mass of men alienated from God and therefore hostile to the cause of Christ.
His atoning sacrifice brought atonement for the sins of all mankind. Each of which is totally depraved. Each must individually be saved and that comes when they hear the Gospel and the Holy Spirit beckoning and respond to that call. They can resist the call and I have seen many do just that.
But the wall of Partition Paul refers too is the Veil in the Temple torn by Christ when He gave up the Spirit form His earthly body. Opening access to God for all mankind, Jew and Gentile alike. God never excluded Gentiles from His plan of salvation even in Nation Israel. They too brought sacrifices but they weren't allowed in the temple only the outer court. But neither Jew nor Gentile who was allowed to pass through the middle wall of Partition in the Tabernacle or Temple except the Jewish High Priest, they represented the People before God. Now Christ as our advocate in Heaven represent us and we are able to approach the Throne of God, that is what Paul is saying here.
You are blowing a lot of smoke but answer nothing! The Wall was broken by Jesus Christ through HIS sacrificial death on the Roman Cross. But sadly there are those who would rebuild that wall from the rubble of "splintered" Scripture; that wall whose destruction was accomplished on the Cross. You are one of those people!
You are blowing a lot of smoke but answer nothing! The Wall was broken by Jesus Christ through HIS sacrificial death on the Roman Cross. But sadly there are those who would rebuild that wall from the rubble of "splintered" Scripture; that wall whose destruction was accomplished on the Cross. You are one of those people!
The Jews sewed the wall back together, but it didn't help because the wall was not between Jew and Gentile as you want to cast it. It was a wal in man's approach to God. In the O.T. that is in the Jewish portion the time in which the Law was given to the coming of Christ, the Jews were to lead others to the Lord. The Gentiles were to come just as the Jews. The Gentiles were saved during that period just as the Jews. By Grace through Faith, but they had to have the Priest take the blood of the sacrifice into the Holy of Holies by way of the Veil that is the middle wall of partition. We no longer need to offer a sacrifice for our sins, Christ did it on the Cross. He paid for the sins of all mankind. We as believers no longer need to offer a sacrifice to cover our sins as we confess those of the Law confessed them over the sacrifice. We confess our to God and that is what the tearing of the middle wall of partition that is veil being rent in the Temple is all about. Paul made abundantly clear in verse 15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"
Very clear the wall of partition is the veil in the Temple that was rent from top to bottom. Here it is "...even the law of commandments contained in ordinances..." what were the ordinances of the Law in Israel, the sacrifices.
Which were administered by the Priest, we are believer Priest in this new progression of God dealing with man. He no longer requires sacrifices thus no need for the veil in the Temple.
No I don't want the Veil returned for it would mean we would need a priest to confess our sins too. I like being able to confess my sins to God and Him only what about you! Do you like going to a priest to confess your sins? That in no way is splintering the gospel. The Gospel is believe and call upon the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. Scripture is not splintered when it is seen in Harmony and the veil being rent is in harmony with what Paul was talking about.
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And after that bit of drama back to the OP!
And after, well, no drama, back to the question: when did the wall come tumbling down?
God bless.
OldRegular
Well-Known Member
The Jews sewed the wall back together, but it didn't help because the wall was not between Jew and Gentile as you want to cast it. It was a wal in man's approach to God. In the O.T. that is in the Jewish portion the time in which the Law was given to the coming of Christ, the Jews were to lead others to the Lord. The Gentiles were to come just as the Jews. The Gentiles were saved during that period just as the Jews. By Grace through Faith, but they had to have the Priest take the blood of the sacrifice into the Holy of Holies by way of the Veil that is the middle wall of partition. We no longer need to offer a sacrifice for our sins, Christ did it on the Cross. He paid for the sins of all mankind. We as believers no longer need to offer a sacrifice to cover our sins as we confess those of the Law confessed them over the sacrifice. We confess our to God and that is what the tearing of the middle wall of partition that is veil being rent in the Temple is all about. Paul made abundantly clear in verse 15. Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;"
Very clear the wall of partition is the veil in the Temple that was rent from top to bottom. Here it is "...even the law of commandments contained in ordinances..." what were the ordinances of the Law in Israel, the sacrifices.
Which were administered by the Priest, we are believer Priest in this new progression of God dealing with man. He no longer requires sacrifices thus no need for the veil in the Temple.
No I don't want the Veil returned for it would mean we would need a priest to confess our sins too. I like being able to confess my sins to God and Him only what about you! Do you like going to a priest to confess your sins? That in no way is splintering the gospel. The Gospel is believe and call upon the Lord Jesus Christ and be saved. Scripture is not splintered when it is seen in Harmony and the veil being rent is in harmony with what Paul was talking about.
The wall that Paul is talking about is not the curtain in the temple. That curtain separated the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies into which only the priest could enter. The rending of the curtain simply meant that the sacrificial system established under Moses was abolished forever.
The wall Paul is talking about is the wall between Jew and Gentile. That is the wall that pre-trib-dispensationalism insists will be rebuilt.
The wall that Paul is talking about is not the curtain in the temple. That curtain separated the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies into which only the priest could enter. The rending of the curtain simply meant that the sacrificial system established under Moses was abolished forever.
The wall Paul is talking about is the wall between Jew and Gentile. That is the wall that pre-trib-dispensationalism insists will be rebuilt.
You almost caught what Paul was talking about but your preconceived notion of this being about the Jew vs. Gentile thing got in your way.
Here it is you stated it "The rending of the curtain simply meant that the sacrificial system established under Moses was abolished forever." That is what Paul is saying that sacrificial system was abolished by God you and I as well as all believers never again need to offer a sacrifice we don't need a Priest to carry the blood of a sacrifice for atonement.
BTW I don't think a wall will be set up between Jew and Gentile again. I do believe Jesus will reign on the Throne of David in Jerusalem in the 1000 year Kingdom after the Tribulation. The Jews will be back in the Nation and they are for the Tribulation.
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OldRegular
Well-Known Member
You almost caught what Paul was talking about but your preconceived notion of this being about the Jew vs. Gentile thing got in your way.
Here it is you stated it "The rending of the curtain simply meant that the sacrificial system established under Moses was abolished forever." That is what Paul is saying that sacrificial system was abolished by God you and I as well as all believers never again need to offer a sacrifice we don't need a Priest to carry the blood of a sacrifice for atonement.
BTW I don't think a wall will be set up between Jew and Gentile again. I do believe Jesus will reign on the Throne of David in Jerusalem in the 1000 year Kingdom after the Tribulation. The Jews will be back in the Nation and they are for the Tribulation.
If you are going to be a pre-trib-dispensationalist you should learn the doctrine.