The Wall That Jesus Christ Broke Down; Rebuilt?

[OldRegular]

Except that you cannot even prove the Covenant between the father and Son before fall of adam, correct?

And while i have a Scofield, I have not used tghat as a primary study bible, so did not get theology from his notes!

Please read what I said:

The Bible teaches that God deals with people through Covenants and that is the truth

And I can prove that is true. You cannot prove that God deals with people through dispensations because He does not.

1. The Covenant with Adam: Genesis 2:15-17

2. The Initiation of the Covenant of Grace in time: Genesis 3;15

3. The Covenant with Noah and his descendants [mankind]: Genesis9:9ff

4. The Covenant with Abraham and his seed: Genesis 12:1 ff

5. The Covenant with Moses/Israel: Exodus 19:5 ff

6. The 2nd Covenant with Israel: Deuteronomy 29:1ff

7, The Covenant with David: 2 Samuel 7:4ff

8. The New Covenant: Jeremiah 31:31-34

9. The New Covenant fulfilled: John 19:30; Hebrews 7:22ff; Hebrews 8:7-13; Hebrews 9:11, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20; Hebrews 12:24; Hebrews 13:20.

Now please give me Chapter and Verse where the different dispensations are identified.

 

[DHK]

Please read what I said:



And I can prove that is true. You cannot prove that God deals with people through dispensations because He does not.

1. The Covenant with Adam: Genesis 2:15-17

2. The Initiation of the Covenant of Grace in time: Genesis 3;15

3. The Covenant with Noah and his descendants [mankind]: Genesis9:9ff

4. The Covenant with Abraham and his seed: Genesis 12:1 ff

5. The Covenant with Moses/Israel: Exodus 19:5 ff

6. The 2nd Covenant with Israel: Deuteronomy 29:1ff

7, The Covenant with David: 2 Samuel 7:4ff

8. The New Covenant: Jeremiah 31:31-34

9. The New Covenant fulfilled: John 19:30; Hebrews 7:22ff; Hebrews 8:7-13; Hebrews 9:11, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20; Hebrews 12:24; Hebrews 13:20.

Now please give me Chapter and Verse where the different dispensations are identified.

You are already acquainted with the dispensations. No one needs to repeat them to you. The only NT covenant that one needs to be concerned with is the one that happens at salvation. Christ, by the power of His Holy Spirit, comes and indwells the believer, when he comes to Christ by faith alone and accepts His gift of salvation.

Otherwise:
Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
--The covenants are given to Israel. They do not apply to us.

 

[Iconoclast]

Otherwise:

Romans 9:4 Who are Israelites; to whom pertaineth the adoption, and the glory, and the covenants, and the giving of the law, and the service of God, and the promises;
--The covenants are given to Israel. They do not apply to us.
__________________
DHK

You totally do not grasp the reality of the NT, that the gentiles are GRAFTED INTO the same covenant promises... it says it right here....

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

DHK ...your errors are overflowing

 

[convicted1]

Otherwise:


You totally do not grasp the reality of the NT, that the gentiles are GRAFTED INTO the same covenant promises... it says it right here....

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

DHK ...your errors are overflowing

We get the same promises that God gave to Abraham concerning his son Isaac...which lineage Christ came from, from Judah. You can find this in Galatians 3, and Hebrews 7 and 11.


Then, we as gentiles, are grafted into the natural Olive Branch, which is Jesus Christ. This is found in Romans 11:24.

 

[Iconoclast]

We get the same promises that God gave to Abraham concerning his son Isaac...which lineage Christ came from, from Judah. You can find this in Galatians 3, and Hebrews 7 and 11.


Then, we as gentiles, are grafted into the natural Olive Branch, which is Jesus Christ. This is found in Romans 11:24.

The system he follows forces him to blindly make statements that cannot make sense. :wavey:That is totally an indefensible position.:wavey:

 

[DHK]

Otherwise:


You totally do not grasp the reality of the NT, that the gentiles are GRAFTED INTO the same covenant promises... it says it right here....

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

DHK ...your errors are overflowing

It is not my error. You have really twisted the meaning of this scripture.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--The "you" are the Ephesian believers. That is who he is writing to. The church at Ephesus was a church composed of both Gentile and Jewish believers. He is addressing the local church.

To them he writes:
Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
--In the past, some of you were Gentiles, and some of you were Jews.

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
--At that time, both of you (Jew and Gentile) were without Christ. Even a Jew without Christ is a stranger from the commonwealth of Israel.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
--Both Jew and Gentile were in the same boat without Christ--separated from God.
Now that they are both in Christ, God has broken down the wall between them so that both Jew and Gentile are now one in Christ. There is to be no division in the church. We are all one in Christ.
He is writing to the believers in Ephesus.

Continue to read:
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
--Both unto God into one body.
That is, both groups (Jewish believers and Gentile believers) are reconciled to God in one body--the local church by the cross.

 

[convicted1]

It is not my error. You have really twisted the meaning of this scripture.

He has twisted scripture? You appear to be playing the game Twister whilst eating pretzels the way you twist them. You do much violence to them.

Ephesians 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;
--The "you" are the Ephesian believers. That is who he is writing to. The church at Ephesus was a church composed of both Gentile and Jewish believers. He is addressing the local church.

Correct. Now, how does this strengthen your position? The whole bible is concentrated on focusing upon His sheep. That's what it is all about. The marriage between the Lamb and His bride. This verse adds nothing to what you're posting, imo.....

To them he writes:
Ephesians 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
--In the past, some of you were Gentiles, and some of you were Jews.

Correct. The same could be said for the other churches at Corinth, Ephesus, Rome, et al. Again, the bible is addressed to us, and our relationship with our Bridegroom, Jesus Christ.

Ephesians 2:12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
--At that time, both of you (Jew and Gentile) were without Christ. Even a Jew without Christ is a stranger from the commonwealth of Israel.

Again, this doesn't help your case one iota. Both sides of this debate agree with this.

Ephesians 2:13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
--Both Jew and Gentile were in the same boat without Christ--separated from God.

Amen Brudder.

Now that they are both in Christ, God has broken down the wall between them so that both Jew and Gentile are now one in Christ. There is to be no division in the church. We are all one in Christ.
He is writing to the believers in Ephesus.

Amen Brudder again...

Continue to read:
Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
--Both unto God into one body.
That is, both groups (Jewish believers and Gentile believers) are reconciled to God in one body--the local church by the cross.

There's more to this than the local church, but that's another subject altogether. Christ came to fulfill the Law. He came under the Law, to redeem them that were under the Law. However, the Law is also written upon the hearts of the believer...Jer. 31, Hebrews 8 and 10. The Jews at the time of Christ, had profaned the altar with polluted bread...Malachi 1. They had turned the office of High Priest into a political office where they held it for so long, and then someone else took over. Christ came to correct this. They even sold/traded in the temple and Christ drove them out. These were the ones who fathers had been rescued from Egypt and Babylon. Yet in time, their fathers would also fall into idolatry. Not all of Israel is Israel, but the very small remnant is accounted as the seed of promise. This very small remnant constitutes the church, the body of Christ, the elect of God, the sheep, et al.

 

[beameup]

I see the "Dispensation of Grace" in Ephesians 3:1-6

For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles,
If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward:
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,
Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)
Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;
That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:

And in Ephesians 2 we have "past" and "future" dispensations:
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. Eph 2:7

(1)In other ages - time past
(2)But now - presently
(3)Ages to come - future

 

[OldRegular]

Otherwise:


You totally do not grasp the reality of the NT, that the gentiles are GRAFTED INTO the same covenant promises... it says it right here....

12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

DHK ...your errors are overflowing

Well said Icon! Scripture also tells us:

Galatians 3:29 And if ye be Christ’s, then are ye Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise.:godisgood:

 

[OldRegular]

We get the same promises that God gave to Abraham concerning his son Isaac...which lineage Christ came from, from Judah. You can find this in Galatians 3, and Hebrews 7 and 11.


Then, we as gentiles, are grafted into the natural Olive Branch, which is Jesus Christ. This is found in Romans 11:24.

Best of all through Jesus Christ we are participants in the New Covenant. Dispensationalists will deny this truth but the Letter to the Hebrews tells us that dispensationalists are wrong as I showed in my post listing the Covenants and confirming Scripture. Furthermore Jesus Christ on the night before Rome and the Jews crucified Him said the following:

Matthew 26:26-28, NASB
26. And while they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”
27. And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you;
28. for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

Luke records verse 28 as follows:

Luke 22:20, NASB
And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

 

[OldRegular]

Originally Posted by Yeshua1
Except that you cannot even prove the Covenant between the father and Son before fall of adam, correct?

And while i have a Scofield, I have not used tghat as a primary study bible, so did not get theology from his notes!

Please read what I said:

The Bible teaches that God deals with people through Covenants and that is the truth

And I can prove that is true. You cannot prove that God deals with people through dispensations because He does not.

1. The Covenant with Adam: Genesis 2:15-17

2. The Initiation of the Covenant of Grace in time: Genesis 3;15

3. The Covenant with Noah and his descendants [mankind]: Genesis9:9ff

4. The Covenant with Abraham and his seed: Genesis 12:1 ff

5. The Covenant with Moses/Israel: Exodus 19:5 ff

6. The 2nd Covenant with Israel: Deuteronomy 29:1ff

7, The Covenant with David: 2 Samuel 7:4ff

8. The New Covenant: Jeremiah 31:31-34

9. The New Covenant fulfilled: John 19:30; Hebrews 7:22ff; Hebrews 8:7-13; Hebrews 9:11, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20; Hebrews 12:24; Hebrews 13:20.

Now please give me Chapter and Verse where the different dispensations are identified.

In my initial response to yeshua1 {Shown above} I listed the Covenants through which God dealt with man and challenged dispensationalists to present similar Scriptural justification for their seven dispensations. They can't because dispensational doctrine is strictly the invention of man, systemized by Darby and Scofield.

 

[AresMan]

From Acts 28:28 Israel was "cut-off" and the Body of Christ began.
Before that, in Acts, Gentile believers were "grafted into" Israel.
When the "fullness of the Gentiles be come in" to the Body of Christ,
and the "Times of the Gentiles" be completed, Israel will once again
become "God's chosen people" during the Tribulation (70th week of Daniel).
The harvest by the Messianic Jews preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom
during the first 3 1/2 years of the 70th week of Daniel will be MASSIVE
and totally eclipse those saved during the last two millennia.

The ability to be instantly transported to anywhere on earth by the Holy Spirit
(like Philip & the Ethiopian), and the ability to speak any language on the planet
will enable the Messianic Jews during the Tribulation to spread the Gospel
of the Kingdom to every language, tongue and people on in the world.

Uh oh. It looks like beameup has shifted from mid-Acts dispensationalism and imbibed Acts 28 dispensationalism.

 

[AresMan]

The true error is when some see the Church as being spiritual israel, as having replaced the nation of israel fully in the plans of God, and having received ALL promises God made to that elect nation/people!

2Co 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

 

[Yeshua1]

Best of all through Jesus Christ we are participants in the New Covenant. Dispensationalists will deny this truth but the Letter to the Hebrews tells us that dispensationalists are wrong as I showed in my post listing the Covenants and confirming Scripture. Furthermore Jesus Christ on the night before Rome and the Jews crucified Him said the following:

Matthew 26:26-28, NASB
26. And while they were eating, Jesus took some bread, and after a blessing, He broke it and gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is My body.”
27. And when He had taken a cup and given thanks, He gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you;
28. for this is My blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for forgiveness of sins.

Luke records verse 28 as follows:

Luke 22:20, NASB
And in the same way He took the cup after they had eaten, saying, “This cup which is poured out for you is the new covenant in My blood.

What other Covenat are we under yet save for the new Covenant?

was it the superior one that superceded all of the prior ones, or what?

Hebrews made us to see that we are now under the far superior Covenant of grace, not the law, correct?

 

[Yeshua1]

2Co 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
2Co 1:20 For all the promises of God in him are yea, and in him Amen, unto the glory of God by us.

Spiritual bl essings granted to those who have been saved under thenew Covenant, yes, but not all of the physical promises were fulfilled to national isreal, as the BIG one yet to come is their reign under their messiah!

 

[Yeshua1]

Uh oh. It looks like beameup has shifted from mid-Acts dispensationalism and imbibed Acts 28 dispensationalism.

Isn't that Bullinger/Hyper dispy views?

That the only rel Epistles to us would be those of paul period?

 

[thisnumbersdisconnected]

Uh oh. It looks like beameup has shifted from mid-Acts dispensationalism and imbibed Acts 28 dispensationalism.

Uh ... they're the same thing.

GotQuestions: What is ultra-dispensationalism?: "One of the inherent dangers of dispensationalism is that it can lead one to overly divide the Bible and see divisions and discontinuity where there shouldn’t be any. This is exactly what the ultra-dispensationalist does. Therefore, ultra- or hyper-dispensationalism would be a teaching that takes the basic tenets of dispensationalism to the very extreme, resulting in unbiblical and often heretical teaching and doctrine. Another movement, known as mid-Acts dispensationalism, Acts 9 dispensationalism, Acts 13 dispensationalism, or Acts 28 dispensationalism, takes a half-way position between classic dispensationalism and hyper-dispensationalism. Also known as the Grace Movement, the tenets of the mid-Acts dispensationalism are not under discussion here." [Emphasis added]

 

[OldRegular]

What other Covenat are we under yet save for the new Covenant?

was it the superior one that superceded all of the prior ones, or what?

Hebrews made us to see that we are now under the far superior Covenant of grace, not the law, correct?

God has always dealt with man because of His Grace. Following is a slightly reworded paragraph I have posted elsewhere regarding the Covenant of Grace. However, since you don't want to accept that there is a Covenant of Grace within the Triune Godhead regarding the Salvation of the elect I have reworded it somewhat, just for you!

Holy Scripture is the story of the outworking of the Grace of God in time and history to accomplish the Salvation of His Elect. Though God, through His Grace, has made a number of Covenants with mankind since the Fall {The Rebellion of Adam and Eve.} there have been two primary administrations of those Covenants, one before the sacrificial death of Jesus Christ and one after His death and resurrection. The first administration as recorded in the Old Testament dealt in types and shadows of things to come [Colossians 2:17, Hebrews 8:5 and 10:1]; the second administration, as recorded in the New Testament, presents the spiritual reality of that which was promised. This second administration was instituted by the death of Jesus Christ [Hebrews 7:14-28] and is the fulfillment of the Old Testament promise of a New Covenant [Jeremiah 31:31-33, Hebrews 8:6-13].

 

[DHK]

There's more to this than the local church, but that's another subject altogether. Christ came to fulfill the Law. He came under the Law, to redeem them that were under the Law. However, the Law is also written upon the hearts of the believer...Jer. 31, Hebrews 8 and 10. The Jews at the time of Christ, had profaned the altar with polluted bread...Malachi 1. They had turned the office of High Priest into a political office where they held it for so long, and then someone else took over. Christ came to correct this. They even sold/traded in the temple and Christ drove them out. These were the ones who fathers had been rescued from Egypt and Babylon. Yet in time, their fathers would also fall into idolatry. Not all of Israel is Israel, but the very small remnant is accounted as the seed of promise. This very small remnant constitutes the church, the body of Christ, the elect of God, the sheep, et al.

Ephesians 2:15 Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace;
16 And that he might reconcile both unto God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby:
--You have agreed with me up to verse 15, that the former verses are speaking to the church at Ephesus. Is it not strange to you that suddenly Paul would go off on a tangent and suddenly talk to a different audience other than the church at Ephesus?
He does not! This is a letter directed to the church at Ephesus, the same people whom he calls together in Acts 20:17,
Acts 20:17 And from Miletus he sent to Ephesus, and called the elders of the church.
--Here he gives them further encouragement and instruction.
He is not talking to anyone but them.

Some of the truths you have said may be found in other Scripture, but they are not expressed here to the local church at Ephesus. Here he does not refer to Jeremiah 31 or to Malachi, etc. You are reading that into this passage. He is speaking of the unity of the believers of this church, and that is all. Don't twist the context and eisigete some of your doctrine from this passage. You can't do that. You are not rightly dividing the word of truth.

 

[OldRegular]

How is it that dispensationalists talk continually about the 1000 year reign of Jesus Christ during a Jewish millennial and then hammer those who reject that doctrine for not believing God's promises to Israel and Abraham? For example:

Genesis 13:15 For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.

Joshua 14:9 And Moses sware on that day, saying, Surely the land whereon thy feet have trodden shall be thine inheritance, and thy children’s for ever, because thou hast wholly followed the LORD my God.

2 Chronicles 20:7 Art not thou our God, who didst drive out the inhabitants of this land before thy people Israel, and gavest it to the seed of Abraham thy friend for ever?

Ezekiel 37:25 And they shall dwell in the land that I have given unto Jacob my servant, wherein your fathers have dwelt; and they shall dwell therein, even they, and their children, and their children’s children for ever: and my servant David shall be their prince for ever.

It appears then that dispensationalists take it upon them selves to tweak God's promises a little. Really, compared to for ever, or eternity, is 1000 years any more than zero years? I believe compared to infinity 1000 and zero are the same. Perhaps some good mathematician on board can provide the answer!

As far as I am concerned until the dispensationalist explains how "for ever" gets reduced to 1000 years they are just blowing smoke!