The walls of Jericho

[JSM17]

The question is not whether man is saved by faith, we all agree with that, but the question is "WHEN" is man saved by faith?

Immediately when they believe or after their faith leads to certain acts of obedience?

Does the expression "by faith" necessarily mean at the point of faith? Immediately when one believes? The bible gives us the answer to these questions in Heb 11:30
By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days.
NKJV

1. Did the walls of Jericho fall down by faith? YES
2. Did the walls of Jericho fall down just as soon as the Israelites believed? NO

After they compassed about!
The Israelites had to obey all the conditions-their faith led them to obey God.

 

[annsni]

The question is not whether man is saved by faith, we all agree with that, but the question is "WHEN" is man saved by faith?

Immediately when they believe or after their faith leads to certain acts of obedience?

Does the expression "by faith" necessarily mean at the point of faith? Immediately when one believes? The bible gives us the answer to these questions in Heb 11:30
By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days.
NKJV

1. Did the walls of Jericho fall down by faith? YES
2. Did the walls of Jericho fall down just as soon as the Israelites believed? NO

After they compassed about!
The Israelites had to obey all the conditions-their faith led them to obey God.

Wow! I never realized that the walls of Jericho were a parable for us to understand our salvation. Thanks for the lesson JSM.

 

[Briguy]

I am a little foggy on what you mean by your example so will just answer the question you asked.
When a man is saved is answered in Ephesians 1:
3Blessed [is] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who did bless us in every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love,
5having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He did make us accepted in the beloved,
7in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the remission of the trespasses, according to the riches of His grace,



A person is saved when Jesus saves them. Belief is only possible for one who has been chosen for belief. Not only for belief but for Holiness and being unblemished. The point is that we don't want to ever think that our being saved is in our hands because it is not. Sorry it took me a while to get to that point.


In Christ,
Brian

 

[annsni]

I am a little foggy on what you mean by your example so will just answer the question you asked.
When a man is saved is answered in Ephesians 1:
3Blessed [is] the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who did bless us in every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4according as He did choose us in him before the foundation of the world, for our being holy and unblemished before Him, in love,
5having foreordained us to the adoption of sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will,
6to the praise of the glory of His grace, in which He did make us accepted in the beloved,
7in whom we have the redemption through his blood, the remission of the trespasses, according to the riches of His grace,



A person is saved when Jesus saves them. Belief is only possible for one who has been chosen for belief. Not only for belief but for Holiness and being unblemished. The point is that we don't want to ever think that our being saved is in our hands because it is not. Sorry it took me a while to get to that point.


In Christ,
Brian

Amen Brian. :godisgood:

 

[JSM17]

Wow! I never realized that the walls of Jericho were a parable for us to understand our salvation. Thanks for the lesson JSM.

I love sarcasm. This is not a parable, this is one of many examples of God offering a blessing that is received only when man is obedient in faith to fully receive that which is offered by God.

Heb 11:30
By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days.
NKJV

This passage shows what "By faith" means.

If by faith we are saved, it does not mean by faith alone. It is always a faith that obeys that saves.

1.God's blessing offered. His grace extended.
2. God's word, instruction in receiving the blessing. What they must do in faith in order to receive the blessing. God commanded no less than 15 acts of obedience in order to receive His blessing.

So when did they receive the blessing, when they believed, or when their faith obeyed?

Did these acts of faith nullify the faith? No, just as faith by itself does not save and obedience to God's words in receiving the blessing does not.

You find the same idea with the Bronze serpent in the wilderness, and the story of Naaman.

God does not believe for you as some advocate. God sets before us evidence and faith comes from that evidence. Faith comes from hearing the word of God.
God does not make us obey, if He did then it would not be obedience, and it would not be faith.


Hebrews shows us whay "By faith" means. A faith that does not obey is dead.

 

[annsni]

I love sarcasm. This is not a parable, this is one of many examples of God offering a blessing that is received only when man is obedient in faith to fully receive that which is offered by God.

Heb 11:30
By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days.
NKJV

This passage shows what "By faith" means.

If by faith we are saved, it does not mean by faith alone. It is always a faith that obeys that saves.

1.God's blessing offered. His grace extended.
2. God's word, instruction in receiving the blessing. What they must do in faith in order to receive the blessing. God commanded no less than 15 acts of obedience in order to receive His blessing.

So when did they receive the blessing, when they believed, or when their faith obeyed?

Did these acts of faith nullify the faith? No, just as faith by itself does not save and obedience to God's words in receiving the blessing does not.

You find the same idea with the Bronze serpent in the wilderness, and the story of Naaman.

God does not believe for you as some advocate. God sets before us evidence and faith comes from that evidence. Faith comes from hearing the word of God.
God does not make us obey, if He did then it would not be obedience, and it would not be faith.


Hebrews shows us whay "By faith" means. A faith that does not obey is dead.

Can you show me where anyone says that God believes for us? I've never heard that teaching.

 

[JSM17]

Can you show me where anyone says that God believes for us? I've never heard that teaching.

If man is depraved to the point of not coming to God, and if God has to work within a person to change his heart, then is God not changing the person so as to believe?

So before someone can believe or come to faith, many say that there has to be a change that occurs from outside of that person. I believe the primitive (hardshell) Baptist held to this position.

The position may be minute, but the implications of it are easily seen if God must change man's heart in order for him to believe then it is not man but God.

The question boils done to when does faith save?

Faith apart from obedience does not save, but many proclaim that the unsaved man cannot obey God in order to recieve the blessing of salvation, that this makes man the savior of his soul.

The walls came down only when they were obedient in faith. It is clearly an example of faith that works to a result of receiveing what was promised.

The Israelites did not merit boastfully the city, yet the obyed and received it through or by faith that acted out.It was God who commanded and it was God who gave them the city, yet if they would have not done what was required of them in order to reveive the blessing they would have not. This is always the case in scripture when man goes against what God has asked man to do.

This is why God commamded faith, repentance, confession, baptism, and other things that are required of man by God through faith in order to receive the blessing of salvation and the future hope of eternal life.

 

[donnA]

or after their faith leads to certain acts of obedience?

this would make salvation by works.

 

[Darron Steele]

The question is not whether man is saved by faith, we all agree with that, but the question is "WHEN" is man saved by faith?

Immediately when they believe or after their faith leads to certain acts of obedience?

this would make salvation by works.

`Oh, but works do not include acts of obedience.'

I am dead serious. That is EXACTLY the rationale they use to get around this. Believe it or not, that satisfies many of their adherents -- normally because they do not want to believe that they chose the wrong group.

More clearly, it still does not get around Acts 10:43 "every one that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV).

JSM17 denies this to be the case, claiming that only after "faith leads to certain acts of obedience" are completed does a believer on Jesus Christ have hope of salvation -- all other believers on Jesus Christ will NOT receive remission of sins.

As we can see, JSM17 posits that `NOT every one that believeth on him receives remission of sins' -- the exact negation of Acts 10:43. If you view prior threads of JSM17 that have come up, you will notice that s/he strives to get attention diverted from that passage. S/he hopes somehow, some way, s/he can come up with a passage that justifies a position contrary to Acts 10:43.

 

[Agnus_Dei]

I watched an interesting program (forgot what channel) called B.C. Battles. Current/retired military officers recounted the tactics use during OT battles and Jericho was one battle that was discussed. And after seeing the program from a purely military perspective, I tend to agree that the walls coming down is figurative for when the walls were breached and city was taken over.

In XC
-

 

[annsni]

I watched an interesting program (forgot what channel) called B.C. Battles. Current/retired military officers recounted the tactics use during OT battles and Jericho was one battle that was discussed. And after seeing the program from a purely military perspective, I tend to agree that the walls coming down is figurative for when the walls were breached and city was taken over.

In XC
-

However, the Bible clearly states that the walls fell down flat. You are saying that the Bible is not telling the truth??

 

[annsni]

If man is depraved to the point of not coming to God, and if God has to work within a person to change his heart, then is God not changing the person so as to believe?

So before someone can believe or come to faith, many say that there has to be a change that occurs from outside of that person. I believe the primitive (hardshell) Baptist held to this position.

The position may be minute, but the implications of it are easily seen if God must change man's heart in order for him to believe then it is not man but God.

The question boils done to when does faith save?

Faith apart from obedience does not save, but many proclaim that the unsaved man cannot obey God in order to recieve the blessing of salvation, that this makes man the savior of his soul.

The walls came down only when they were obedient in faith. It is clearly an example of faith that works to a result of receiveing what was promised.

The Israelites did not merit boastfully the city, yet the obyed and received it through or by faith that acted out.It was God who commanded and it was God who gave them the city, yet if they would have not done what was required of them in order to reveive the blessing they would have not. This is always the case in scripture when man goes against what God has asked man to do.

This is why God commamded faith, repentance, confession, baptism, and other things that are required of man by God through faith in order to receive the blessing of salvation and the future hope of eternal life.

You said that God believes for man.. I don't see that anywhere. Can you show me where that happens? I've never heard that God believes for people. He CAUSES man to believe but He does not believe for us. You made a statement, back it up.

 

[JSM17]

You said that God believes for man.. I don't see that anywhere. Can you show me where that happens? I've never heard that God believes for people. He CAUSES man to believe but He does not believe for us. You made a statement, back it up.

Thats not what I said, this is what I said:

God does not believe for you as some advocate.

Then I explained it for you further when I said:

If man is depraved to the point of not coming to God, and if God has to work within a person to change his heart, then is God not changing the person so as to believe?

So before someone can believe or come to faith, many say that there has to be a change that occurs from outside of that person. I believe the primitive (hardshell) Baptist held to this position.

The position may be minute, but the implications of it are easily seen if God must change man's heart in order for him to believe then it is not man but God.

 

[JSM17]

Originally Posted by donnA
this would make salvation by works

.

Faith is a work, repentance is a work, confession is a work, baptism is a work!
Is belief something that we do our God does for us?If we have to believe is it not us working?
If repentance is a change who changes, us or God? If we change is that not work? Certainly no one here would say that we are saved without faith and repentance. Everyone acts as if some how these things are not work, they are.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

I love sarcasm. This is not a parable, this is one of many examples of God offering a blessing that is received only when man is obedient in faith to fully receive that which is offered by God.

Heb 11:30
By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days.
NKJV

This passage shows what "By faith" means.

If by faith we are saved, it does not mean by faith alone. It is always a faith that obeys that saves.

1.God's blessing offered. His grace extended.
2. God's word, instruction in receiving the blessing. What they must do in faith in order to receive the blessing. God commanded no less than 15 acts of obedience in order to receive His blessing.

So when did they receive the blessing, when they believed, or when their faith obeyed?

Did these acts of faith nullify the faith? No, just as faith by itself does not save and obedience to God's words in receiving the blessing does not.

You find the same idea with the Bronze serpent in the wilderness, and the story of Naaman.

God does not believe for you as some advocate. God sets before us evidence and faith comes from that evidence. Faith comes from hearing the word of God.
God does not make us obey, if He did then it would not be obedience, and it would not be faith.


Hebrews shows us whay "By faith" means. A faith that does not obey is dead.

GE:
Do you think fear might have played a part in their 'obedience'? Just think what might have happened, dared anyone to refuse to fall in .... Yet the LORD accepted. The love of God for sinners remains a mystery. Fortunately it says no one is justified by works. thank God, I also may be comforted by the words from the Scriptures as someone has quoted. Jesus did not in vain die for his elect, neither rose that they should not be justified or saved. Now is there a cause besides, that will bring a man to obedience?

 

[Jedi Knight]

Did the thief on the cross DO anything to get saved? He call out to the Lord and Jesus answered "today you will be with me in paradise".

 

[annsni]

You said that God believes for man.. I don't see that anywhere. Can you show me where that happens? I've never heard that God believes for people. He CAUSES man to believe but He does not believe for us. You made a statement, back it up.

Thats not what I said, this is what I said:

God does not believe for you as some advocate.

You said that some state that God believes FOR someone, did you not? You show it right here. "God does not believe for you as some advocate" is what you said. I've never heard someone advocate that. You said they do. I ask for proof of that.

Then I explained it for you further when I said:

If man is depraved to the point of not coming to God, and if God has to work within a person to change his heart, then is God not changing the person so as to believe?

So before someone can believe or come to faith, many say that there has to be a change that occurs from outside of that person. I believe the primitive (hardshell) Baptist held to this position.

The position may be minute, but the implications of it are easily seen if God must change man's heart in order for him to believe then it is not man but God.
__________________

There is a difference between man's heart being changed by God to be able to believe in Him - and God believing for the man. One is the man believing, the other is God. Totally different.

 

[JSM17]

The implications of God changing a man's depraved heart so he can even understand the scriptures (1 Corin. 2), in order to come to faith soley depends upon God. This leads some to teach that regeneration occurs even prior to faith, does that not imply that it is God who infuses faith on a man before he is converted. R.C Sproul and many other teach and believe this.

The point is being missed, the fact that faith apart from works is dead. Faith is not perfected made complete until that faith works no matter whether before conversion or after.

All the passages found in Heb 11 teach that faith was active and it was the obedience coupled with faith that procured the blessing that they received. Again Naaman and the Bbronze serpent teach this as well.


As for the thief on the cross, did he not repent, was not his faith joined by he work of repentance? His change from insulting Jesus and then proclaiming that He was God. So even the thief was not saved by faith alone

 

[Tom Butler]

Repentance is a gift, not a work.

II Tim 2:25 ....if peradventure, God will grant them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth..

 

[Darron Steele]

...

As for the thief on the cross, did he not repent, was not his faith joined by he work of repentance? His change from insulting Jesus and then proclaiming that He was God. So even the thief was not saved by faith alone

Okay, you are not real clear. Elswhere you said

No time, my position on faith has always been the same. As I said before what I may or may not have said in the pass I can assure you was the same.
Faith that saves is a faith that leads one to repent.

The question does faith include repentance: yes...

Now, does faith include repentance or not?

You claim that "faith alone" does not include repentance, which would mean that "faith" does not include repentance.

Which is it? Maybe on this thread you will answer for us which you really believe, so we can have an authentic discussion.