The walls of Jericho

[billwald]

A person is saved when the Holy Spirit regenerates him. This person is converted when he realizes that the Holy Spirit has regenerated him.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Very well said! I have always said the same thing, one is regenerated unto conversion; one is not converted unto regeneration. The Gospel is so simple, because it is so true -- and comforting. The older one gets the more the 'comfort aspect' of free grace gets to mean. I don't feel like participating on these many threads where people who don't have an idea of free grace try to belittle Calvinism. No matter how many times they will be put in place they won't bother in any case. There are so many insurpassable beautiful and well stated affirmations of the Gospel of free Grace or Election out there for everyone to read; but these Arminians won't look at them, they are so preoccupied with their own opinions.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

The implications of God changing a man's depraved heart so he can even understand the scriptures (1 Corin. 2), in order to come to faith soley depends upon God. This leads some to teach that regeneration occurs even prior to faith, does that not imply that it is God who infuses faith on a man before he is converted. R.C Sproul and many other teach and believe this.

The point is being missed, the fact that faith apart from works is dead. Faith is not perfected made complete until that faith works no matter whether before conversion or after.

All the passages found in Heb 11 teach that faith was active and it was the obedience coupled with faith that procured the blessing that they received. Again Naaman and the Bbronze serpent teach this as well.


As for the thief on the cross, did he not repent, was not his faith joined by he work of repentance? His change from insulting Jesus and then proclaiming that He was God. So even the thief was not saved by faith alone

GE:
A good tree cannot help but bear good fruit; that's why a tree is known by its fruit. He who with his heart believes the Lord Jesus and with his mouth confesses Him the justifier and redeemer of his soul shall be saved. 'Shall be saved' is Future Tense of past meaning. He had been save or he would not in his heart believe or with his mouth confess. In fact, there is no such thing as a faith of the Gospel without the works OF THE GOSPEL. Like the thief's 'works', they are the works not of man but of God just as it is the faith not from man but from God. James does not speak of the works of man whether the works of his faith or not; he speaks of God's works as faith's works.

 

[JSM17]

A good tree cannot help but bear good fruit; that's why a tree is known by its fruit. He who with his heart believes the Lord Jesus and with his mouth confesses Him the justifier and redeemer of his soul shall be saved. 'Shall be saved' is Future Tense of past meaning. He had been save or he would not in his heart believe or with his mouth confess. In fact, there is no such thing as a faith of the Gospel without the works OF THE GOSPEL. Like the thief's 'works', they are the works not of man but of God just as it is the faith not from man but from God. James does not speak of the works of man whether the works of his faith or not; he speaks of God's works as faith's works.

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Abraham was justified by works period! He was made right when is works were coupled with faith. Obedience is faith working the works that God commands us in order to be justification.

Was Abraham justified by works? Yes or no?

 

[Darron Steele]

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Abraham was justified by works period! He was made right when is works were coupled with faith. Obedience is faith working the works that God commands us in order to be justification.

Was Abraham justified by works? Yes or no?

Abraham was shown to be a believer by his works.

The context is James 2:19

But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." (NASB)​

Abraham showed his faith by his works, as we ought to.

However, he was not saved by his works and neither are we. Romans 4 is clear about this:

"1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh?

2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God.

3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness." (ASV)​

We are saved for our faith without our works.

We show our faith by our works.

 

[annsni]

Abraham was shown to be a believer by his works.

The context is James 2:19

But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works." (NASB)​

Abraham showed his faith by his works, as we ought to.

However, he was not saved by his works and neither are we. Romans 4 is clear about this:

"1 What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, hath found according to the flesh?

2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not toward God.

3 For what saith the scripture? And Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh, the reward is not reckoned as of grace, but as of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is reckoned for righteousness." (ASV)​

We are saved for our faith without our works.

We show our faith by our works.

Exactly. Our works come from faith and are an evidence of that faith.

 

[JSM17]

24 You see then that a man is justified by works, and not by faith only.


Is a man justified by works? Yes

Is a man justified by faith only? No

 

[BobRyan]

Romans 10 gives a pretty good model.

With the heart one believes and with the mouth a person confesses "resulting in salvation".

in Christ,

Bob

 

[JSM17]

James 2:26

26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
NKJV


Body + spirit=live man
Body - spirit= dead man

Faith + works= live faith
Faith- works= dead faith

Salvation by faith alone is a dead faith.
Faith in and of itself cannot save.

Repentance is unto salvation.
2 Cor 7:10

10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted; but the sorrow of the world produces death.
NKJV
Faith will produce godly sorrow which will lead one to repent.
Confession is unto salvation.

Rom 10:10

10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
NKJV

Confession is not the same as faith, for some believe in Christ yet would not confess him John 8.

Baptism is for the forgiveness of sins.
Acts 2:38
38 Then Peter said to them,"Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
NKJV

The word "EIS" means unto just as you have in 2 Corinthians 7:10; Romans 10:10.
If we affirm that 2 Corinthians 7:10 and Romans 10:10 leads to salvation then Acts 2:38 teaches that baptism leads to forgiveness of sins as well.

 

[Darron Steele]

Whoa!

We are jumping from the fact that a "faith" that does not motivate works is a worthless, inauthentic faith -- to a suggestion that without baptism, there is no forgiveness of sins.

I was expecting that was the goal, but I did not expect the whiplash speed and the leaps.

`Class, I guess we were just not moving fast enough to JSM17's desired topic.'

A dead faith is an inauthentic one: and it does not produce any works. Baptism is one work. JSM17's main point, I believe, will be that even if a believer's life is pervaded by works motivated by faith, s/he will not be saved if s/he fails to be properly baptized. A failure of a believer to be properly baptized is not what James 2 is discussing. I think there needs to be more substantiation for the connection JSM17 posits.

I, for one, think that a lot more substantiation is needed to take James 2 and suggest that without baptism, forgiveness of sins will not happen. Quite problematic, considering Acts 10:43 says "everyone that believeth on him |receives| remission of sins" (ASV|ESV|ASV). A lot of the leaps JSM17 took were over essential steps needed for substantiation.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered Isaac his son on the altar? 22 Do you see that faith was working together with his works, and by works faith was made perfect?

Abraham was justified by works period! He was made right when is works were coupled with faith. Obedience is faith working the works that God commands us in order to be justification.

Was Abraham justified by works? Yes or no?

GE:
Abraham WAS jusitified : Passive. WHO justified Abraham? He himself? No God, justified Abraham - Active, Whose works justified Abraham? It is the work of God only to forgive sins. No one but God can forgive sins; no one but God justifies. Justification is the forgiveness of sin; unless one is a Roman Catholic.

 

[JSM17]

James 2:25

25 Likewise, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?
NKJV


She was justified by her works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way. God did not mke her do this she did it. It was her works that justified her, the same was with Abraham.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Hebrews chapter 11 explains about the faith. Faith is more than just "believe", also, it includes action, reply, and obedience. You should read throughout whole context of chapter 11. This chapter 11 tells us, that they were all saved by their faith because they did obeyed God with their actions.

Noah was the perfect example of his faith. When God called him to built a huge Ark, because He told him that, he will destroy the world with flood. Was Noah doubt God? No. He believed him. But, not just a one time event of 'believe' in God as what He saying to him. He have faith in God while he built the Ark with his actions for 120 years. 120 years is pretty LONG TIME!! I bet that the people were made fun and mocked on Noah, think he is fool. Probably he was depress during built the Ark during period. No one believe his warning, not even one repent. No one want to join and help Noah and his family to finish Ark. Noah and his family, only 8 people to finished Ark in 120 years. That's pretty lot of work while in their faith at same time.

I am pretty sure that anyone in Noah's family probably have their doubting while built the Ark, because I believe they do not have any friend with them. Everybody hate them. They were so lonely. They could have quit their work, and not finish Ark. They return back to world. They could have already drowned in the flood for sure.

See? Their faith is more than just "believed"(one time event of salvation). Faith required of being reply back with their obedience and endure.

Therefore, both faith and work go together at same time. Many people claim, they have faith in God or Jesus, but they did not serve the Lord. then, therefore, their truly faith is DEAD that's period. That mean, they are not saved.

Also, many people saying they do not believe in Jesus or God, but they doing their own good works. Then, therefore, they are not saved.

James chapter 2 teaches us that faith and work both must merge together at same time.

That why, lot of christians are lukewarm in America, because they did not obey God, I fear that lot of Christians' faith is dead already, that means, they are not truly saved, because they did not bring their fruit afterward. So, many will not make it into eternal life at the end.

Noah was the perfect example of his faith, that he already determined to endure to finish the task in his faith. His faith was a hardship life. He could have already quit for sure, and have been drowned in the flood already. But, he overcame the world by his faith throughout 120 years. He made it.

Faith is conditional that we must meet with our reply, endure, and obedience all go together in order to have eternal life at the end - Matt. 10:22; and Matt. 24:13.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[annsni]

Hebrews chapter 11 explains about the faith. Faith is more than just "believe", also, it includes action, reply, and obedience. You should read throughout whole context of chapter 11. This chapter 11 tells us, that they were all saved by their faith because they did obeyed God with their actions.

Noah was the perfect example of his faith. When God called him to built a huge Ark, because He told him that, he will destroy the world with flood. Was Noah doubt God? No. He believed him. But, not just a one time event of 'believe' in God as what He saying to him. He have faith in God while he built the Ark with his actions for 120 years. 120 years is pretty LONG TIME!! I bet that the people were made fun and mocked on Noah, think he is fool. Probably he was depress during built the Ark during period. No one believe his warning, not even one repent. No one want to join and help Noah and his family to finish Ark. Noah and his family, only 8 people to finished Ark in 120 years. That's pretty lot of work while in their faith at same time.

I am pretty sure that anyone in Noah's family probably have their doubting while built the Ark, because I believe they do not have any friend with them. Everybody hate them. They were so lonely. They could have quit their work, and not finish Ark. They return back to world. They could have already drowned in the flood for sure.

See? Their faith is more than just "believed"(one time event of salvation). Faith required of being reply back with their obedience and endure.

Therefore, both faith and work go together at same time. Many people claim, they have faith in God or Jesus, but they did not serve the Lord. then, therefore, their truly faith is DEAD that's period. That mean, they are not saved.

Also, many people saying they do not believe in Jesus or God, but they doing their own good works. Then, therefore, they are not saved.

James chapter 2 teaches us that faith and work both must merge together at same time.

That why, lot of christians are lukewarm in America, because they did not obey God, I fear that lot of Christians' faith is dead already, that means, they are not truly saved, because they did not bring their fruit afterward. So, many will not make it into eternal life at the end.

Noah was the perfect example of his faith, that he already determined to endure to finish the task in his faith. His faith was a hardship life. He could have already quit for sure, and have been drowned in the flood already. But, he overcame the world by his faith throughout 120 years. He made it.

Faith is conditional that we must meet with our reply, endure, and obedience all go together in order to have eternal life at the end - Matt. 10:22; and Matt. 24:13.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

One who is truly saved will do works because of that salvation. It's not the works that save but it's a sign of the new creation. I breathe because I'm alive but we can make a dead person "breathe" too but it doesn't make them alive. If a person passes out, what is the very first thing we check for to see if there is life? Breathing. A person who is breathing is alive. A person who does the works of the Lord is alive in Christ. Christ gives the new life and the works spring out of that. The works do not start the new life because only God can do that.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

You are partially correct.

But in cases, many true Christians did serve the Lord with their hearts in their early years. But, somehow they stopped serve the Lord, are their faith still alive, and still always saved?

Christ tells us, we must abide in Him as He abides in us, or, if we do not abide in him, he shall removed us away - John 15:1-6. Also, we must carry our fruit and endure them, or if we not carry our fruits, then we might be cast away.

Bible shows us of conditionals and warnings, these are too much for us. No way that we can ignore them. We must take heed and listen them.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!