The Way of the Master moment episode use the Law

[Revmitchell]

I argued that Paul teaches Gentile guild by what is revealed of God and the Godhead in their own hearts.

Whooo, please elaborate on this.Thanks

 

[JonC]

Whooo, please elaborate on this.Thanks

Yes, Rev. I'll be glad to.

The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them. This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ.

Basically I disagree that the final judgment is not based on Christ but on the Ten Commandments - and this is a specific point Comfort makes.

 

[Revmitchell]

Basically I disagree that the final judgment is not based on Christ but on the Ten Commandments - and this is a specific point Comfort makes.

1. What do you mean by "judgement is based on Christ"?
2. What exactly does Comfort say?

 

[JonC]

1. What do you mean by "judgement is based on Christ"?
2. What exactly does Comfort say?

“at face value, it seems Jesus is saying that the world will be judged for their sin “because they do not believe in Me.’ This would mean that sin is “a failure to believe in Jesus.’ Let’s say you are a missionary in the heart of Africa….” (pg. 68) He goes on to explain that those in Africa are like those in Athens. They are not guilty for rejecting Christ but because they are under the Law, they have transgressed the Ten Commandments (e.g., the idol worship of Athens).

My argument is that sins are manifestations of our sinfulness. It is our sinfulness that is the issue. The world is already condemned for rejecting the light. I believe that through Jesus God was reconciling the world to himself. Christ is central not only to our salvation but also to the condemnation of the lost (they are condemned for rejecting the Light, their sins remain as manifestations of this condemnation and their sinfulness). I believe that Ray Comfort is right in emphasizing sin in evangelism, but I believe he is wrong in excluding Christ.

Rev, again, I really don't care about this issue (of the book). All books are subject to error, but I find this one to take scripture a bit too out of context. We compare the book to Scripture and it comes up short. Another example is "Wild at Heart" by Jonathan Eldridge. I agree with what he says, but how he gets there is just short of open theism. That's why I cannot recommend the book.

 

[Revmitchell]

Sin and not sinfulness as you call it is the issue. There is a debt or "wage" owed God because of our sin. We have rebelled against God. Our sinful acts are not secondary to our sinfulness our sinful acts are the very issue that separates us from God.

People need to know what it is that separates us from God so that they understand why we need a Savior.

 

[JonC]

Sin and not sinfulness as you call it is the issue. There is a debt or "wage" owed God because of our sin. We have rebelled against God. Our sinful acts are not secondary to our sinfulness our sinful acts are the very issue that separates us from God.

People need to know what it is that separates us from God so that they understand why we need a Savior.

Yes, I understand what you are saying. We disagree. We need far more than forgiveness, we need rebirth. God not only cleanses us, but he also gives us s new heart and spirit, puts his spirit in us. We must be reborn, regenerated and made anew.

So where you view the problem to be acts of rebellion, I believe it to be our rebellion itself. IMHO, it is absolutely incorrect that the problem is our actions. The problem, Rev, is us.

 

[Revmitchell]

Yes, I understand what you are saying. We disagree. We need far more than forgiveness, we need rebirth. God not only cleanses us, but he also gives us s new heart and spirit, puts his spirit in us. We must be reborn, regenerated and made anew. It is absolutely incorrect that the problem is our actions. The problem, Rev, is us.

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom_4:7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;

Eph_2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

Col_1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Heb_9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

Isa_53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

 

[JonC]

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Rom_4:7 "Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, and whose sins are covered;

Eph_2:1 And you were dead in the trespasses and sins

Col_1:14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Heb_9:22 Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.

Isa_53:6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned—every one—to his own way; and the LORD has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Ezekiel 36 - I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

John 3 - Truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

You have half of the gospel, Rev. I think if you can incorporate a new birth in to your equation you will be right there with Nicodemus listening to the words of our Lord and Savior.

 

[Revmitchell]

Ezekiel 36 - I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean; I will cleanse you from all your impurities and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit in you; I will remove from you your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put my Spirit in you and move you to follow my decrees and be careful to keep my laws.

John 3 - Truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit. Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.

You have half of the gospel, Rev. I think if you can incorporate a new birth in to your equation you will be right there with Nicodemus listening to the words of our Lord and Savior.

Uh no, I was not trying to give the "whole" gospel. I showed where sin is the issue and it is primary per our last few posts. what you posted suggested otherwise.

 

[JonC]

Uh no, I was not trying to give the "whole" gospel. I showed where sin is the issue and it is primary per our last few posts. what you posted suggested otherwise.

I know you were trying, brother. I was just showing you that our need for forgiveness was only a part of the problem (hence the scripture I provided). I was not meaning to question your integrity, only your conclusions.

Jesus did not come only to forgive our sins. He came so that we could have a newness of life. He died not only to atone for our sins and for us to avoid wrath. He came to reconcile us to himself. It is not about action, it is about humanity. Our sins are manifestations of our Sin.

 

[Revmitchell]

I know you were trying, brother. I was just showing you that our need for forgiveness was only a part of the problem (hence the scripture I provided). I was not meaning to question your integrity, only your conclusions.

Ok well I have had a hard time understanding what you mean with your use of words and phrases. Probably the most difficult time I have had on this board. I think we are unintentionally talking past each other.

 

[JonC]

Ok well I have had a hard time understanding what you mean with your use of words and phrases. Probably the most difficult time I have had on this board. I think we are unintentionally talking past each other.

Probably. I am from South Carolina, grew up in Atlanta and Tennessee.....so I type with a strong southern accent.

 

[Revmitchell]

By the way I reject the idea that Ray Comfort excludes Christ from soul-winning. That is just a contemptibly false accusation.

 

[JonC]

By the way I reject the idea that Ray Comfort excludes Christ from soul-winning. That is just a contemptibly false accusation.

I don't know if he excludes Christ from soul-winning or not. I have only read this one book a couple of times and have not seen that he does. He does exclude the idea that the world is condemned for rejecting the Light (the Light being Christ) as he actually tells us this is a mistaken view in the book. The light he is speaking of is the light of the Law that shines in our darkened souls to convict us of sin. Jesus comes later. Personally, I think that he vaguely hints at truth but is so confused about the nature of the Law that he slides towards heresy. Jesus is the Light, and coming into the world Jesus enlightens every man.

Anyway....whatever.....I don't really care if you advocate "What would Jesus Do" or if you disagree with its error. If it helps you reach the lost then praise God people are being reached. Go get 'em Rev. And may the force be with you.

 

[Revmitchell]

I don't know if he excludes Christ from soul-winning or not.

I was just going by what you posted earlier:

" I believe that Ray Comfort is right in emphasizing sin in evangelism, but I believe he is wrong in excluding Christ."

 

[JonC]

I was just going by what you posted earlier:

" I believe that Ray Comfort is right in emphasizing sin in evangelism, but I believe he is wrong in excluding Christ."

Yea....it was my southern accent thing....sorry. I was referring to the quote from his book. He stated that we need to convict under the Law, not build relationships, because relationship detracts and we could end up making the most common type of covert....a false one (Most will say Lord, Lord....).

 

[Revmitchell]

Yea....it was my southern accent thing....sorry. I was referring to the quote from his book. He stated that we need to convict under the Law, not build relationships, because relationship detracts and we could end up making the most common type of covert....a false one (Most will say Lord, Lord....).

I do not agree with his view on building relationships. However, some people become converted without them as well.

 

[JonC]

I do not agree with his view on building relationships. However, some people become converted without them as well.

Oh, I don't think one method is more correct than another either. But I do disagree that apart from using the Law we end up with what Jesus says most of us are - false converts.

But again, I was only offering why I would not recommend the book. You do as you please, brother. The book is linked a few posts back. Put on your "discerning" hat and test your ground.

 

[evangelist6589]

I have arrived home and have my copy of the book and will expound a little.

Comfort does well to use the Ten Commandments, I am not denying that. But he overemphasizes the Ten Commandments and ends up diminishing God’s moral law in so doing. He uses the Law, God’s moral law, and the Ten Commandments interchangeably when none of them are the other. The Law is the Law of Moses, granted Comfort informs us he means the Ten Commandments by “the Law.” BUT the Ten Commandments should not be confused with God’s moral law (which is eternal and reflected in the Ten Commandments). Granted, however, Comfort is not a theologian….I don’t really know his educational background, but Theologian School isn’t one of ‘em.

Another huge problem is that Comfort determines that the lost will be judged by the Ten Commandment when they die. One point he ignores has already been stated – the Ten Commandments do not capture God’s moral law – they reflect his moral law insofar as included at that juncture in the Law (Paul clearly states that God’s moral law is revealed to the world apart from the Law). Also (and more importantly), sin is not simply a violation of the Ten Commandments.

Then we have twists and turns in Scripture as Comfort bends Scripture to his thesis. Let’s just look at a point for illustration.

On page 18 Comfort quotes James 4:6 “Law to the proud and grace to the humble” and concludes that “biblical evangelism therefore follows the principle of ‘Law to the proud, and grace to the humble’ In someone is proud and self-righteous – like the self-righteous man who ran to the Savior and asked how to be saved – we must do what Jesus did. We should give him the Law to show him the nature of sin. If he is humble of heart – already possessing the knowledge of sin – such as in the case of Nicodemus, then we should do what Jesus did and give him grace.”

Here is James 4:6 in context:

James 4:4-10 You adulterous people! Do you not know that friendship with the world is enmity with God? Therefore whoever wishes to be a friend of the world makes himself an enemy of God. Or do you suppose it is to no purpose that the Scripture says, “He yearns jealously over the spirit that he has made to dwell in us”? But he gives more grace. Therefore it says, “God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble.” Submit yourselves therefore to God. Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. Draw near to God, and he will draw near to you. Cleanse your hands, you sinners, and purify your hearts, you double-minded. Be wretched and mourn and weep. Let your laughter be turned to mourning and your joy to gloom. Humble yourselves before the Lord, and he will exalt you.

Does Comfort exegete this verse correctly, or does he eisegete the passage to suit his preconceived conclusion?

If you are interested, the entire book is on that link. You can read other rebuttals as well. John MacArthur (a Calvinistic American pastor) has cautioned his church against Comforts theology, and Phil Johnson has written quite a bit criticizing the book and method.

I hopes this helps. I didn’t just jump on the topic, but have read carefully the book and Scripture and I simply find Comfort at odds with the biblical text much too often to recommend this book.

Post the links to Mac and Phil Johnson criticizing Comfort.

 

[JonC]

Post the links to Mac and Phil Johnson criticizing Comfort.

If I can find it I will when I get home. But both are on the old thread.

In the mean time here are some good observations

http://thecripplegate.com/concerns-with-the-way-of-the-master/