The Way of the Master Moment episode- What must a missionary have to serve?

[TCassidy]

Paul certainly did not support your Calvinistic falsehoods:

His problem is not his Soteriology. His problem is his self-centered refusal to obey the Great Commission.

1. Win them (through Gospel preaching or personal witness).

2. Baptize them into the nurturing membership of a local bible believing Baptist church.

3. Truly disciple them by teaching them all they need to know to live a productive Christian life (fruit, much fruit, fruit that remains) and to preach/witness to others.

He fails on all three points.

 

[Yeshua1]

As scripture has shown you many many times its God who draws the elect to salvation. Its God who does the soul winning, and all we do is obey. You rely too much on methods, but I rely on the Holy Spirit to bring His elect to salvation. Its not about methods, its about scripture.

God can use different methods and styles to save the loss though. correct?
He had a thunderer like John the Baptist, a crier like Jeremiah, a smarty like paul etc?

 

[Revmitchell]

His problem is not his Soteriology. His problem is his self-centered refusal to obey the Great Commission.

1. Win them (through Gospel preaching or personal witness).

2. Baptize them into the nurturing membership of a local bible believing Baptist church.

3. Truly disciple them by teaching them all they need to know to live a productive Christian life (fruit, much fruit, fruit that remains) and to preach/witness to others.

He fails on all three points.

While I understand not all calvinist/reformed/particular folks are this way he is in fact using their definition of election to defend his disobedience to scripture.

 

[evangelist6589]

You, young man, have no idea what anyone is a by product of nor do you have the biblical acumen to be able to tell him anything about this or any other theological topic. You parrot weak calvinistic teachings based on books of men. That is all you have.

Talk to the hand.

 

[TCassidy]

books of men. That is all you have.

That part I will agree with.

 

[Yeshua1]

Talk to the hand.

We would rather talk to you!

 

[evangelist6589]

We would rather talk to you!

Why? I hate it when my critics all gang up on me.

 

[TCassidy]

Why? I hate it when my critics all gang up on me.

You don't have any critics here. You only have people who are trying to help you get over your self-centeredness, your man worship, and your refusal to live under the Lordship of Jesus Christ.

 

[Sapper Woody]

You are a byproduct of the modern gospel message so its no wonder you would be against open air preaching.

Has the gospel message changed? Is the "modern gospel message" any different from the "old gospel message"? I think not. The gospel is the gospel. I think that was simply your way of disparaging me via ad hominem.

Now, show me where I said I was against open air preaching. And I can show you posts on this very board, addressed to you, where I tell you that I've participated in open air preaching. I am not against it at all. It's just not a very effective method of spreading the gospel. In open air preaching, I've seen a total of three people saved, and then never saw them again. Compare that to "cold knocking", where I've seen a couple dozen saved, and a few I was able to follow up with and see them churched and disciple. Then, compare that with the people that I've worked with, ate with, and was a good testimony to in my daily walk. Those that I've gotten to come to church using that method have a nearly 100% retention rate, versus the small percentage "cold knocking", and the zero percent while street preaching.

Given that the Great Commission is so much more than just delivering the gospel, which method should be used?

Now, more to the point of answering on topic, my objection is to the fact that street preaching drives people away more than it draws in. You yourself have admitted to having no fruit. If you have no fruit, perhaps you should look at your gardening method.

If I planted a garden, and nothing grew, I'd go to someone who has been successful in growing, and learn from them. After all, the Great Commission in Matthew 28 is very cut and dried. We are to do two things: teach, and baptize. Ironically, preaching isn't even on the list. If you are only out street preaching, you are failing to fulfill the Great Commission. The Great Commission is all about personal fruit.

 

[evangelist6589]

Has the gospel message changed? Is the "modern gospel message" any different from the "old gospel message"? I think not. The gospel is the gospel. I think that was simply your way of disparaging me via ad hominem.

Now, show me where I said I was against open air preaching. And I can show you posts on this very board, addressed to you, where I tell you that I've participated in open air preaching. I am not against it at all. It's just not a very effective method of spreading the gospel. In open air preaching, I've seen a total of three people saved, and then never saw them again. Compare that to "cold knocking", where I've seen a couple dozen saved, and a few I was able to follow up with and see them churched and disciple. Then, compare that with the people that I've worked with, ate with, and was a good testimony to in my daily walk. Those that I've gotten to come to church using that method have a nearly 100% retention rate, versus the small percentage "cold knocking", and the zero percent while street preaching.

Given that the Great Commission is so much more than just delivering the gospel, which method should be used?

Now, more to the point of answering on topic, my objection is to the fact that street preaching drives people away more than it draws in. You yourself have admitted to having no fruit. If you have no fruit, perhaps you should look at your gardening method.

If I planted a garden, and nothing grew, I'd go to someone who has been successful in growing, and learn from them. After all, the Great Commission in Matthew 28 is very cut and dried. We are to do two things: teach, and baptize. Ironically, preaching isn't even on the list. If you are only out street preaching, you are failing to fulfill the Great Commission. The Great Commission is all about personal fruit.

Actually I never said I had no fruit. Denver is a far more difficult area to witness than it was in the Bible belt. My experience going back to a city I once lived proved that. In the Bible belt I have led people to salvation, prayed with people, mailed books, taken people out to lunch or dinner, and had many, many conversations. The difference is that the Bible is part of the culture and so people are familiar with it. Denver is a very secular place and people here hate the bible and are not familiar with it.

Regarding open air preaching I could say the same. However returning to the bible belt last month I noticed that people were so accustomed to it they just completely ignore it for the most part. While in Denver I have been cussed out many times for open air preaching, this is not the case in the bible belt. Regardless its not about "effectiveness" its about obedience.

 

[Sapper Woody]

Actually I never said I had no fruit. Denver is a far more difficult area to witness than it was in the Bible belt. My experience going back to a city I once lived proved that. In the Bible belt I have led people to salvation,

Many on this board have a flawed definition of success. They call me a failure because I have not saved anyone nor disciples anyone when in fact I am just the one to plant the seeds and someone else will water it in discipleship.

Many have tried to make me look like a failure because of my lack of converts in street evangelism but good thing I know better and am not fooled by their misunderstandings.

I have no idea who has gotten saved via my efforts. Your problem is that you look for visible results.

And then:

I had said I had led no one to the lord and this was completely false as I forgot about someone back in SC. I had witnessed to him one week and the next week he came up to me excited and jumpy and said he had gotten saved because of my witness

So, you HAVE said that you've seen no one saved. Then you retracted that, and said that you remembered that one person. Now you're saying you've led multiple people to salvation. (Incidentally, the statement that you do not know who has gotten saved by your efforts was made after you claimed to have had a single convert.)

What's appalling to me is that you claim to be an Evangelist, preaching since 2009, and it took you seven years to remember that you had a convert? You couldn't remember the only person you claim to have led to the lord? You couldn't remember the one fruit you bore?

There are two possibilities here. Either you are lying about that one person, or you are cold hearted and uncaring concerning the lost. For what it's worth, I hope you're lying about that one person. At least then I'd know that you feel some kind of remorse for failing to live up to what God has commanded.

Denver is a very secular place and people here hate the bible and are not familiar with it.

I guess I'll have to call my buddy from college and tell him that when his Dad was a pastor in that area about a decade ago that all his converts and church growing was a fluke, then.

Regarding open air preaching I could say the same. However returning to the bible belt last month I noticed that people were so accustomed to it they just completely ignore it for the most part. While in Denver I have been cussed out many times for open air preaching, this is not the case in the bible belt. Regardless its not about "effectiveness" its about obedience.

You are spot on there. It is about obedience. And Christ commanded us to teach and baptize (disciple). If you are not teaching and discipling you are not being obedient.

It really is very simple. Christ made a declarative statement that we know a tree by its fruit. I don't make it my place to be a fruit inspector. But if someone on greenhouseboard.com (totally made up, though it might be a real thing) went by the handle "gardener6589", and said "Oh, I don't harvest, I only plant. I have no clue how much has grown from the seeds I've thrown around over the years", I'd respond to them the same way I'm responding to you right now. I'd tell them that they are not a gardener, simply a person who likes to be thought of as a gardener, and throws some seed every now and again to make themselves feel like they've done something useful for the farm.

 

[Jerome]

Paul Washer....asks them if they would open their bibles in the middle of the street and start preaching....those that are willing to do this are most called to the ministry of missions. Do you agree or disagree?

I think it's more likely that you'd end up in someone's windshield, being in the middle of the street like that!

 

[evangelist6589]

And then:



So, you HAVE said that you've seen no one saved. Then you retracted that, and said that you remembered that one person. Now you're saying you've led multiple people to salvation. (Incidentally, the statement that you do not know who has gotten saved by your efforts was made after you claimed to have had a single convert.)

What's appalling to me is that you claim to be an Evangelist, preaching since 2009, and it took you seven years to remember that you had a convert? You couldn't remember the only person you claim to have led to the lord? You couldn't remember the one fruit you bore?

There are two possibilities here. Either you are lying about that one person, or you are cold hearted and uncaring concerning the lost. For what it's worth, I hope you're lying about that one person. At least then I'd know that you feel some kind of remorse for failing to live up to what God has commanded.

I guess I'll have to call my buddy from college and tell him that when his Dad was a pastor in that area about a decade ago that all his converts and church growing was a fluke, then.

You are spot on there. It is about obedience. And Christ commanded us to teach and baptize (disciple). If you are not teaching and discipling you are not being obedient.

It really is very simple. Christ made a declarative statement that we know a tree by its fruit. I don't make it my place to be a fruit inspector. But if someone on greenhouseboard.com (totally made up, though it might be a real thing) went by the handle "gardener6589", and said "Oh, I don't harvest, I only plant. I have no clue how much has grown from the seeds I've thrown around over the years", I'd respond to them the same way I'm responding to you right now. I'd tell them that they are not a gardener, simply a person who likes to be thought of as a gardener, and throws some seed every now and again to make themselves feel like they've done something useful for the farm.

I never lied about anything. The truth is I can think of two people that were ready for salvation, but there may have been many more that converted. But it really does not matter as God is the soul winner and draws His elect at His time. He may use a gospel tract, he may use a open air sermon, and that person may get converted years later. I do not know nor can I speculate on the mind of God. All I need to do is obey and leave the converting process to God alone.

 

[Yeshua1]

Actually I never said I had no fruit. Denver is a far more difficult area to witness than it was in the Bible belt. My experience going back to a city I once lived proved that. In the Bible belt I have led people to salvation, prayed with people, mailed books, taken people out to lunch or dinner, and had many, many conversations. The difference is that the Bible is part of the culture and so people are familiar with it. Denver is a very secular place and people here hate the bible and are not familiar with it.

Regarding open air preaching I could say the same. However returning to the bible belt last month I noticed that people were so accustomed to it they just completely ignore it for the most part. While in Denver I have been cussed out many times for open air preaching, this is not the case in the bible belt. Regardless its not about "effectiveness" its about obedience.

The best and most effective way to evangelist among lost sinners is to engage them at school, work, home, and be a friend to them, get involved, and earn their trust in order to have them see Jesus in your life as something worth having! Jesus spent 3 years of his life 24/7 with the Apostles, correct?

 

[JonC]

He who corrects a scoffer gets shame for himself, and he who rebukes a wicked man only harms himself. Do not correct a scoffer, lest he hate you; rebuke a wise man, and he will love you.

 

[Salty]

... God is the soul winner ... He may use a gospel tract, he may use a open air sermon, and that person may get converted years later. ... All I need to do is obey and leave the converting process to God alone.

( bold my emphasis)
KEY WORD - MAY

And he may use Friendship evangelism.

Evan - let me ask you again - ARE YOU AGAINST FRIENDSHIP EVANGELISM?

 

[evangelist6589]

( bold my emphasis)
KEY WORD - MAY

And he may use Friendship evangelism.

Evan - let me ask you again - ARE YOU AGAINST FRIENDSHIP EVANGELISM?

God can use it if he wants.

 

[Salty]

God can use it if he wants.

but you did NOT answer my question.

 

[JonC]

but you did NOT answer my question.

That's because "Friendship Evangelism" IS the way Jesus reached sinners for the Kingdom. Matthew 11:19 and Luke 7:34 even offer this observation from the Pharisees. Where they would have convicted these sinners under the Law Jesus reached them through compassion (offering woes to the cities that did not repent...not because of the Law which they already had but because of the testimony and compassion He demonstrated through miracles).

WOTM is the way of the Pharisees, who condemned man under the Law and expected repentance because of what the Law offered. Evangelism is the opposite. It offers the gospel to a people already condemned - their condemnation made evident through a general revelation (hence man's attempt to reconcile through various religions and philosophies). And God has used WOTM just as He has used other human institutions (such as the Catholic church) - men are saved not because of their erroneous doctrine but despite of it, because within that error the gospel may ultimately be communicated.

 

[evangelist6589]

but you did NOT answer my question.

You have been told many times that I am not against Friendship Evangelism, I just do not prefer it. I prefer the more Biblical Contact Evangelism.