The "weight of scripture" points to the reality of "falling from Grace" - not OSAS

[BobRyan]

those few obscure passages that "seem" to teach otherwise must be examined and the possibility strongly considered that they are teaching something else altogether.

True -- and so here we have an example of the "weight of scripture"

(which is an example of why we say to all -- "Choose the Bible - as your basis for doctrine")

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified

Ezek 18
21 “But if a wicked person turns away from all the sins they have committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, that person will surely live; they will not die. 22 None of the offenses they have committed will be remembered against them. Because of the righteous things they have done, they will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?
24 “But if a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked person does, will they live? None of the righteous things that person has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness they are guilty of and because of the sins they have committed, they will die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ Hear, you Israelites: Is my way unjust? Is it not your ways that are unjust? 26 If a righteous person turns from their righteousness and commits sin, they will die for it; because of the sin they have committed they will die.
4. The soul that sins - it shall die

1 Cor 9
23 I do all things for the sake of the gospel, so that I may become a fellow partaker of it.
24 Do you not know that those who run in a race all run, but only one receives the prize? Run in such a way that you may win. 25 Everyone who competes in the games exercises self-control in all things. They then do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable. 26 Therefore I run in such a way, as not without aim; I box in such a way, as not beating the air; 27 but I buffet my body and make it my slave, lest after I have preached (the Gospel) to others, I myself will not be disqualified from it.

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Gal 5
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace
..

Heb 2
1 For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it. 2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty, 3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation?
After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,

1 Cor 10
11 Now these things happened to them as an example, and they were written for our instruction, upon whom the ends of the ages have come. 12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed that he does not fall......

----------------------------------------------------------------------- this small list given for this reason

To show briefly that this is not the case of "one or two texts that must be fixed to fit OSAS" - but there is the whole of scripture to be reckoned with on this subject as the apparent meaning clearly seen in the text is not at all in line with the ideas suggested in OSAS.

 

[Judith]

Please explain EXACTLY what one must do to lose their salvation.

 

[BobRyan]

Please explain EXACTLY what one must do to lose their salvation.

Whatever they do - that results in God revoking His "full forgiveness" -- of the form "you must repay ALL" after having been granted this gift "I forgave you all that debt" - would be losing salvation because there is no such thing as a "saved person paying their own debt of sin in hell".

So then here we have Jesus giving us an example of how that can happen.

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

 

[Alcott]

So when you are on the rack, how are you going to 'repay'? You can't even reach your pockets.

 

[BobRyan]

So when you are on the rack, how are you going to 'repay'? You can't even reach your pockets.

Funny - but you seem to be arguing with Christ's illustration... recall I am not the author of Matthew 18... take it up with him. The key here is that only one payment is made -- and that is by the King.. and the demand to "repay all" is the demand to the lost wicked servant. who having been forgiven all ... must now "repay all"

 

[BobRyan]

The "Short" version

-- "Choose the Bible - as your basis for doctrine")

Matt 18
32 Then summoning him, his lord *said to him, ‘You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 Should you not also have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?’ 34 And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him. 35 My heavenly Father will also do the same to you, if each of you does not forgive his brother from your heart.”

Romans 11
19 You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” 20 Quite right, they were broken off for their unbelief, but you stand by your faith. Do not be conceited, but fear; 21 for if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you, either. 22 Behold then the kindness and severity of God; to those who fell, severity, but to you, God’s kindness, if you continue in His kindness; otherwise you also will be cut off. 23 And they also, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.

1 Cor 6
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, 10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. 11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified

 

[Pastor_Bob]

Gal 5
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace...

I do not have the time to comment on each of these passages, so I'll just comment on this one passage that seems to be a proof text for the IHTKMS* crowd.

A simple cross-reference of Galatians 5 and Acts 15 will show that Paul was describing the results of the Jerusalem conference on legalism (actual legalism - not what is being accused of legalism in our day). These new Jewish converts were being pressured to continue keeping the law. The Gentile converts were being told that they had to be circumcised to be saved.

Paul clearly denounces this legalistic false ideal and tells them that, if they go back to a life of trying to please God by once again keeping the law, then, "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law..." If you are able to be justified by your own good works or observance of the law, then Christ's sacrifice was unnecessary.

He goes on to say, "ye are fallen from grace." He DID NOT say, "you have lost your salvation." In context, he is CLEARLY teaching that they have fallen from applying the doctrine of grace to their lives and have gone back to the doctrine of law-keeping. At no time did Paul tell them that were no longer saved.









* I Have To Keep Myself Saved

 

[BobRyan]

I do not have the time to comment on each of these passages, so I'll just comment on this one passage that seems to be a proof text for the IHTKMS* crowd.

That list of texts in the OP was in response to this statement talking about "FEW obscure" passages (from the Gospels, NT, OT in this case) that ""seem to teach otherwise"

Pastor_Bob said: ↑
those few obscure passages that "seem" to teach otherwise must be examined and the possibility strongly considered that they are teaching something else altogether.

It is over simplifying to argue these are "few" when in fact you also are clear you don't have time to deal with all of them.

 

[BobRyan]

Gal 5
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace
..

A simple cross-reference of Galatians 5 and Acts 15 will show that Paul was describing the results of the Jerusalem conference on legalism (actual legalism - not what is being accused of legalism in our day). These new Jewish converts were being pressured to continue keeping the law. The Gentile converts were being told that they had to be circumcised to be saved.

And by "keep the law" you don't mean "keep thinking that taking God's name in vain would still be a sin even for Christians" rather you mean "keep the ceremonial law - such as circumcision" -- I assume.

In any case the issue is that OSAS does not "allow" for any problem to result in "Severed from Christ" or "Fallen from Grace"

 

[Pastor_Bob]

It is over simplifying to argue these are "few" when in fact you also are clear you don't have time to deal with all of them.

No, sir. I said I do not have time to comment on "each" of these passages - not "all" of these passages. My statement was not quantifying the passages at all because I believe that they are indeed "few."

 

[BobRyan]

Pastor_Bob said: ↑
those few obscure passages that "seem" to teach otherwise must be examined and the possibility strongly considered that they are teaching something else altogether.

It is over simplifying to argue these are "few" when in fact you also are clear you don't have time to deal with all of them.

No, sir. I said I do not have time to comment on "each" of these passages - not "all" of these passages. My statement was not quantifying the passages at all because I believe that they are indeed "few."

ok that's fine -- you regard the sample list of OSAS challenges in the OP as "a few".

 

[Pastor_Bob]

you regard the sample list of OSAS challenges in the OP as "a few".

I do. And, the few obscure passages that "seem" to teach that one can lose their salvation must be examined and the possibility strongly considered that they are teaching something else altogether, as is Galatians 5:4 on which I commented above.

 

[BobRyan]

Gal 5
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace
..
And by "keep the law" you don't mean "keep thinking that taking God's name in vain would still be a sin even for Christians" rather you mean "keep the ceremonial law - such as circumcision" -- I assume.

In any case the issue is that OSAS does not "allow" for any problem to result in "Severed from Christ" or "Fallen from Grace"

He goes on to say, "ye are fallen from grace." He DID NOT say, "you have lost your salvation."

If the saved state is "fallen from grace" there is no Bible text affirming that idea.
Rather the Bible says "save by grace through faith" - very different from "fallen from grace"

4 "You have been severed from Christ,"
By contrast "joined to Christ" .. and "Christ in you the hope of glory" is the "saved state"

In context, he is CLEARLY teaching that they have fallen from applying the doctrine of grace to their lives

Looks a bit like an 'insert"

At no time did Paul tell them that were no longer saved.

If "saved by grace through faith" and "joined to Christ" is the saved state.

And then you also claim that
4 You have been severed from Christ, and fallen from grace..is ALSO the saved state then we have different definition of saved.

Many Christians will accept that the Bible has no Christless, Graceless "saved" - and then when reading
]Gal 5
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace

They will tend to conclude 'the obvious'.

but as I have said before - I admit that all have free will and not all will agree with the Arminian POV on this point.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

If the saved state is "fallen from grace" there is no Bible text affirming that idea.

One can most certainly be saved by grace and then fail to live by grace. Context is the key, my friend.

 

[Revmitchell]

In Galatians 5 the phrases "severed from Christ" and "fallen from grace" are not references to not being saved. In fact Paul goes on to call these same people "brothers" in verses 11 & 13. He also encourages them to walk in the Spirit in 16. The earlier phrases are a reference to how they are acting not a salvic state. Paul often employs this type of language when talking to and about believers. He did so in I Corinthians 2:14 when He makes reference to the "natural" person. It is a reference to the thinking and actions not the salvic state.

 

[BobRyan]

One can most certainly be saved by grace and then fail to live by grace. Context is the key, my friend.

Details are key - "fail to live by grace" as in "fail to have full understanding of grace and live in that freedom" is not the same thing as "severed from Christ" and "fallen from grace".

The Christless condition of "severed from Christ" is hard to ignore in this chapter.
The graceless condition of "fallen from grace" is also difficult to ignore.

And there is no such thing as a Christless, graceless salvation.

Yet you argue that this condition is "clearly" the saved condition. I claim that a certain high degree of a priori preference had to be useful just then.

 

[Yeshua1]

If the saved state is "fallen from grace" there is no Bible text affirming that idea.
Rather the Bible says "save by grace through faith" - very different from "fallen from grace"

4 "You have been severed from Christ,"
By contrast "joined to Christ" .. and "Christ in you the hope of glory" is the "saved state"



Looks a bit like an 'insert"



If "saved by grace through faith" and "joined to Christ" is the saved state.

And then you also claim that
4 You have been severed from Christ, and fallen from grace..is ALSO the saved state then we have different definition of saved.

Many Christians will accept that the Bible has no Christless, Graceless "saved" - and then when reading
]Gal 5
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace

They will tend to conclude 'the obvious'.

but as I have said before - I admit that all have free will and not all will agree with the Arminian POV on this point.

Paul is NOT stating that they have lost salvation, but that they were saved by garce alone faith alone, but by trying to perfect it by keeping law, they are fallen from the source of becoming more matured!

 

[BobRyan]

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Gal 5
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace
..

Paul is NOT stating that they have lost salvation, but that they were saved by garce alone faith alone, but by trying to perfect it by keeping law, they are fallen from the source of becoming more matured!

I think we would both agree that "fallen from the source of becoming more matured!" is a good example of text that we do not find in either Gal 5 or Hebrews 6.

As compared to what we do find there
"You have been severed from Christ, "
and "you have fallen from grace"

 

[BobRyan]

In Galatians 5 the phrases "severed from Christ" and "fallen from grace" are not references to not being saved.

Does Paul ever say that to be saved is - "severed from Christ" and "fallen from grace" - in your Bible?

In fact Paul goes on to call these same people "brothers" in verses 11 & 13. He also encourages them to walk in the Spirit in 16.

The position that does not argue for OSAS - would say the same thing to those who had been "severed from Christ" and "fallen from grace" -- urging them to choose the right course of action in the future - walking in the Spirit rather than continuing to be "severed from Christ" and "fallen from grace"

The earlier phrases are a reference to how they are acting not a salvic state.

Is it your position that he should have inserted "you appear to act as IF you had been "severed from Christ" and "fallen from grace" - which of course you have not because that would mean OSAS is not true" --- ??

Paul often employs this type of language when talking to and about believers. He did so in I Corinthians 2:14 when He makes reference to the "natural" person. It is a reference to the thinking and actions not the salvic state.

The natural state - is the sinful nature -which even the saved still have until they are "changed" at the 2nd coming.

 

[BobRyan]

In Galatians 5 the phrases "severed from Christ" and "fallen from grace" are not references to not being saved. In fact Paul goes on to call these same people "brothers" in verses 11 & 13. .

Paul never said that everyone in any given church are all saved or are all lost. That is the start.

For example in Romans 1
8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for all of you, because your faith is being reported all over the world. 9 God, whom I serve in my spirit in preaching the gospel of his Son, is my witness how constantly I remember you 10 in my prayers at all times; and I pray that now at last by God’s will the way may be opened for me to come to you.

Followed by Romans 2
21 you, then, who teach others, do you not teach yourself? You who preach against stealing, do you steal? 22 You who say that people should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the law, do you dishonor God by breaking the law? 24 As it is written: “God’s name is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.

All lost -- does not work there
All saved -- does not work there.

Gal 5
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. 7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

Gal 1
6 I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you

In all of this Paul never identifies a single person who is saved by name and does not single out one person as being lost - rather he describes the lost state of the person that is lost and the saved state of the person who is saved. And also includes the case of those who fell from grace and are in a Christless state of having been "severed from Christ" by their own choices made in favor of doctrinal error -- and thus "fallen from grace" -- so then not descriptive of everyone in that church.