The "weight of scripture" points to the reality of "falling from Grace" - not OSAS

[Pastor_Bob]

Details are key

Agreed...but only when kept in context.

The Christless condition of "severed from Christ" is hard to ignore in this chapter.

Context indicates that this is not a "Christless" condition.

The graceless condition of "fallen from grace" is also difficult to ignore.

Context indicates that this is not a "graceless" condition.

And there is no such thing as a Christless, graceless salvation.

I agree 100%. This passage is not talking about salvation - the context is clearly Christian living.

Yet you argue that this condition is "clearly" the saved condition. I claim that a certain high degree of a priori preference had to be useful just then.

No, sir. Just sound biblical interpretation.

I'll restate it one more time and then I am bowing out of this unprofitable debate (Titus 3:9).

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Paul is teaching anything but the idea that you can lose your salvation. Paul says that if you are justified by the law, by keeping the law, by doing good works, then you have fallen from the principle that grace is the only way to get to heaven. You are now back to keeping good works, and the sacrifice that Christ made for you is now of no effect to you. Grace is no longer the basis for your salvation; you have fallen back into a works-based attempt at salvation.

 

[BobRyan]

The text says "you have been severed from Christ"

Context indicates that this is not a "Christless" condition.

And yet you have no text showing "severed from Christ" is "not actually severed from Christ" and not a "Christless condition"


the text says "you have fallen from grace"

Context indicates that this is not a "graceless" condition.

And yet you have no text showing "you have fallen from grace" is "not really fallen from grace" and not actually "without grace, without the benefit of grace for the saved"

you are simply inserting "not" in front of the terms that don't fit OSAS to achieve an a priori goal

This passage is not talking about salvation -

That would be it.

There is no "secular context" for "severed from Christ" - "fallen from grace" for the Christian in terms of Christ.

the context is clearly Christian living.

That is also my claim - the saved Christian who is no longer connected to Christ or grace - is the fallen from grace, forgiveness revoked, lost person, "severed from Christ"

At the very least it is easy to see that a great many Christians would choose not to insert "not really" or "not spiritually" in front of the phrases that do not fit OSAS - and it is easy to see that having no text at all describing the saved condition as "severed from Christ and fallen from Grace" -- many Christians would "notice" that this is precisely the state that the lost find themselves in.

So although we may differ on a number of points - that last one is pretty obvious to all of us.

I'll restate it one more time and then I am bowing out of this unprofitable debate (Titus 3:9).

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
... Paul says that if you are justified by the law, by keeping the law, by doing good works, then you have fallen from the principle that grace is the only way to get to heaven. You are now back to keeping good works, and the sacrifice that Christ made for you is now of no effect to you.

At that point it is difficult to tell if you are making your point or mine

The lost person has no benefit from the sacrifice of Christ until they choose to accept the Gospel - hopefully everyone knows this.

The Gospel has no power at all to save - apart from the benefits of the sacrifice of Christ - I think we all agree.

If you can ever get yourself to the point that the sacrifice of Christ gives you no benefit - you will need a Christless means of salvation to be "saved" in that condition. Whether you get there as a lost person never-was-saved... or not.

Grace is no longer the basis for your salvation; you have fallen back into a works-based attempt at salvation.

at that point it is difficult to tell if you are making your point or mine.

Works based salvation is the lost state of the old Covenant "obey and live" -- it does not result in "heaven" for the sinner.

You call this discussion (and by that I assume you mean these details in the discussion) "unprofitable" -- and you have free will and can choose that... but I differ.

 

[Pastor_Bob]

You call these details "unprofitable" -- and you have free will and can choose that... but I differ.

Sadly, this is a willful gross misrepresentation of what I said. I said the "debate" is unprofitable...but, you knew that and still misrepresented me. That is unethical and dishonest.

 

[BobRyan]

Sadly, this is a willful gross misrepresentation of what I said. I said the "debate" is unprofitable..

I assumed you meant the details in the debate.

accusations not necessary. My focus is on the details.

I readily admit that we differ - my focus is on the fact that the text itself is using very specific language and I see why there is some effort to fit it into OSAS - I am simply pointing out that the square peg, round hole thing is not working there.

 

[utilyan]

Agreed...but only when kept in context.

Context indicates that this is not a "Christless" condition.

Context indicates that this is not a "graceless" condition.

I agree 100%. This passage is not talking about salvation - the context is clearly Christian living.

No, sir. Just sound biblical interpretation.

I'll restate it one more time and then I am bowing out of this unprofitable debate (Titus 3:9).

Galatians 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.
Paul is teaching anything but the idea that you can lose your salvation. Paul says that if you are justified by the law, by keeping the law, by doing good works, then you have fallen from the principle that grace is the only way to get to heaven. You are now back to keeping good works, and the sacrifice that Christ made for you is now of no effect to you. Grace is no longer the basis for your salvation; you have fallen back into a works-based attempt at salvation.

Good Works is just Love. Who hates God in heaven?

Intrinsically you are damned the very second you hate God with sin.

Location and immortality doesn't mean jack, you can be in the divine Disney Land.

The moment you sin you already spit in God's face.


Name one person in heaven who sins.

They don't because they are SAVED FROM SINNING.


OSAS indeed is in the bible:

Genesis 3
4The serpent said to the woman, “You surely will not die!

Its the exact same sales pitch.

 

[BobRyan]

Gal 5
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. 7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

Two options.

1. the OSAS position is wrong according to Gal 5.

• If this is true - OSAS is dead
• If it is true then "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace" is just what it looks like
• It it is true then the Gal 5:4 differs from the never-were-saved group of the lost in that they "were not joined to Christ and so could not have then been severed" -- and 'were not under grace... were not standing under grace" and so could not have fallen from it.
• If it is true - then no need for long winding re-working "fixing" explanations for the text.

2. The OSAS position is not being challenged at all in Gal 5

• If this is true - and if OSAS is wrong - then "some other text" would have to be used - not Galatians 5:4 to prove OSAS wrong.
• If this is true then a lot of "work" must added to show clear Bible support in Gal 5:4 for the "saved" condition as "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace"
• Failing that - then search for some other text clearly showing that "You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace" means -- "still saved"
• If this is true then you should never go to Gal 5:4 in an OSAS study or sermon except to "fix" it.
• Even so -- you should "expect" a lot of new OSAS believers in the pews to be asking what in the world is going on here.

 

[Yeshua1]

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Gal 5
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace
..




I think we would both agree that "fallen from the source of becoming more matured!" is a good example of text that we do not find in either Gal 5 or Hebrews 6.

As compared to what we do find there
"You have been severed from Christ, "
and "you have fallen from grace"

Hebrews 6 not referring to saved then now lost, it refers to those who would profess faith in jesus, but when times get tough, show their true selves and return back to Judaism.
Falling from grace refers to the truth that those who where saved by faith alone in jesus, were riot trying to get themselves "more saved" by now turning to keeping the Law as a spiritual means of grace. Does NOT mean lost salvation.

 

[BobRyan]

Question for the group. (might have to ask it on another thread)

Has anyone ever come across a Christian that did not believe in OSAS - who read this text and said "oh no... wait!.. maybe OSAS is correct after all"???

Gal 5
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. 7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

Or who said "well did not know anything about OSAS before -- but now that I look at this text - maybe OSAS is right after all"

Anyone who saw this as not outright refuting OSAS - though they themselves did not believe in OSAS?

 

[BobRyan]

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Gal 5
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace
..

I think we would both agree that "fallen from the source of becoming more matured!" is a good example of text that we do not find in either Gal 5 or Hebrews 6.

As compared to what we do find there
"You have been severed from Christ, "
and "you have fallen from grace"

Hebrews 6 not referring to saved then now lost, it refers to those who would profess faith in jesus, but when times get tough, show their true selves and return back to Judaism.
Falling from grace refers to the truth that those who where saved by faith alone in jesus, were riot trying to get themselves "more saved" by now turning to keeping the Law as a spiritual means of grace. Does NOT mean lost salvation.

So then in your view -- this is the description of salvation
4 You have been severed from Christ, ...; you have fallen from grace
..

And this is the description of being lost
enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

And when Paul says
For it is impossible ... to renew them again to repentance,

You think he wants to renew a never-was-saved lost person - to some other lost-state and that their former state of being lost is no longer available to them in their now current lost state??

 

[Yeshua1]

Question for the group. (might have to ask it on another thread)

Has anyone ever come across a Christian that did not believe in OSAS - who read this text and said "oh no... wait!.. maybe OSAS is correct after all"???

Gal 5
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit, by faith, are waiting for the hope of righteousness. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love. 7 You were running well; who hindered you from obeying the truth?

Or who said "well did not know anything about OSAS before -- but now that I look at this text - maybe OSAS is right after all"

Anyone who saw this as not outright refuting OSAS - though they themselves did not believe in OSAS?

Galatians 5 has NOTHING to do with a true believer losing their salvation!

 

[Yeshua1]

Hebrews 6
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, 6 if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Gal 5
4 You have been severed from Christ, you who are seeking to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace
..

I think we would both agree that "fallen from the source of becoming more matured!" is a good example of text that we do not find in either Gal 5 or Hebrews 6.

As compared to what we do find there
"You have been severed from Christ, "
and "you have fallen from grace"




So then in your view -- this is the description of salvation
4 You have been severed from Christ, ...; you have fallen from grace
..

And this is the description of being lost
enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

And when Paul says
For it is impossible ... to renew them again to repentance,

You think he wants to renew a never-was-saved lost person - to some other lost-state and that their former state of being lost is no longer available to them in their now current lost state??

Hebrews 6 describes those who were never saved, while those described in Galatians 5 were those saved, but be seduced to living by Law, not by Grace!

 

[BobRyan]

Hebrews 6 describes those who were never saved, while those described in Galatians 5 were those saved, but be seduced to living by Law, not by Grace!

So then in your view -- this is the description of salvation
4 You have been severed from Christ, ...; you have fallen from grace
..

And this is the description of being lost
enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

And when Paul says
For it is impossible ... to renew them again to repentance,

You think he wants to renew a never-was-saved lost person - to some other lost-state and that their former state of being lost is no longer available to them in their now current lost state??

(I notice that question does not get answered...

 

[BobRyan]

Galatians 5 has NOTHING to do with a true believer losing their salvation!

I am hearing the resolute determination in that post...

I hear a lot of that lately

I believe more and more people are switching over to that solution

 

[Yeshua1]

I am hearing the resolute determination in that post...

I hear a lot of that lately

I believe more and more people are switching over to that solution

Jesus stated that he will NEVER lose any whom he has saved, do you agree with him?

 

[Yeshua1]

So then in your view -- this is the description of salvation
4 You have been severed from Christ, ...; you have fallen from grace
..

And this is the description of being lost
enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

And when Paul says
For it is impossible ... to renew them again to repentance,

You think he wants to renew a never-was-saved lost person - to some other lost-state and that their former state of being lost is no longer available to them in their now current lost state??

(I notice that question does not get answered...

Galatians was written to address saved persons who started living by faith/grace, but were going back under the bondage of law!
Hebrews addressing those who professed Jesus as Messaih, but departed back to Judaism, revealing were not ever really saved!

 

[BobRyan]

Jesus stated that he will NEVER lose any whom he has saved, do you agree with him?

I believe Jesus - would you like to quote Him in context at some point?

 

[BobRyan]

Yeshua1 said: ↑
Hebrews 6 describes those who were never saved, while those described in Galatians 5 were those saved, but be seduced to living by Law, not by Grace!

So then in your view -- this is the description of salvation
Gal 5
4 You have been severed from Christ, ...; you have fallen from grace
..

And this is the description of being lost
Heb 6
enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, 5 and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come,

And when Paul says
For it is impossible ... to renew them again to repentance,

You think he wants to renew a never-was-saved lost person - to some other lost-state and that their former state of being lost is no longer available to them in their now current lost state??

(I notice that question does not get answered...

----------- this is where we watch to see that question ignored again ----

Galatians was written to address saved persons who started living by faith/grace, but were going back under the bondage of law!

Hebrews addressing those who professed Jesus as Messaih, but departed back to Judaism, revealing were not ever really saved!

Since you are ignoring the question still... then one more time (with feeling).

And when Paul says
For it is impossible ... to renew them again to repentance,

You think he wants to renew a never-was-saved lost person - to some prior lost-state and that their former state of being lost is no longer available to them in their now current lost state of being lost-er??

Hebrews addressing those who professed Jesus as Messaih, but departed back to Judaism, revealing were not ever really saved!

Is this you saying saying that Paul was trying to "restore them to their prior lost state from which they departed" and was admitting he could not get them back to their prior lost state??

 

[Yeshua1]

I believe Jesus - would you like to quote Him in context at some point?

John 10:28-30, how do you understand this?

 

[BobRyan]

John 10:28-30, how do you understand this?

John 10
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

"My sheep hear my voice AND follow Me"

Nothing I have posted about someone falling from Grace and being severed from Christ - has claimed "This person is hearing God's Word and following Christ - yet inexplicably is lost anyway" -- and we all know it.

The ONE point where ALL agree - where BOTH sides agree - is that in the small group that DO "persevere in faith - firm to the end" -- who DO hear God's Word AND follow it - are not those who lose their salvation.

So now lets "look at the DETAILS in the texts we find in the OP" and NOTICE that even the most pulpit-pounding among the opponents to these texts on losing salvation - do not argue that these are all examples of "consistently hearing God's Word AND following it".

Incredibly obvious.

Also "instructive" that your request specifically asks to begin in vs 28 and not 27 because you knew this was coming. (Which is why I keep asking that you "quote" something other than "you" - and we both know it)

 

[Yeshua1]

John 10
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; 28 and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father’s hand. 30 I and the Father are one.”

"My sheep hear my voice AND follow Me"

Nothing I have posted about someone falling from Grace and being severed from Christ - has claimed "This person is hearing God's Word and following Christ - yet inexplicably is lost anyway" -- and we all know it.

The ONE point where ALL agree - where BOTH sides agree - is that in the small group that DO "persevere in faith - firm to the end" -- who DO hear God's Word AND follow it - are not those who lose their salvation.

So now lets "look at the DETAILS in the texts we find in the OP" and NOTICE that even the most pulpit-pounding among the opponents to these texts on losing salvation - do not argue that these are all examples of "consistently hearing God's Word AND following it".

Incredibly obvious.

Also "instructive" that your request specifically asks to begin in vs 28 and not 27 because you knew this was coming. (Which is why I keep asking that you "quote" something other than "you" - and we both know it)

None can snatch them out of the Fathers hand, Jesus declared that as being emphatic, "no. not one"