The Whole?

[Van]

If we read Revelation 5:9, and focus on the last part we find translations that differ greatly.

NKJV:
For You were slain,
And have redeemed us to God by Your blood
Out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation,

NASB
for You were slaughtered,
and You purchased for God with Your blood
from every tribe, language, people, and nation.
​

The first line reads the same - because Jesus died
The second line says something completely different, Christ either redeemed us, or simply purchased somebody.
But it is the third line where things take a very different path.

NASB renders "pas" G3956 as from every which is consistent with our of every. And the NKJV reverse interlinear has the Greek word "ek" (out from) in its Greek text (TR), but no such word appears in the NASB critical text (CT)

The fly in the buttermilk is pas means all, every or the whole thing. So a literal translation would read, purchased every tribe, language, people and nation. But that is not how our English translations read!

All means everybody, but from everybody means not everybody. Thus the opposite of what is in the text. Were all the translators thinking purchased meant redeemed, rather than bought to include those heading for swift destruction?

 

[Van]

Guess how many times the NASB renders pas, as "from every?" Just once in Revelation 5:9. In every case where the phrase "from every" appears, the from appears in the Greek text as a preposition.

See Revelation 7:4 and 7:9 where "ek" out from is in the CT.

In Luke 12:48, the NASB reads "From everyone" (with "from" not in the text) but a few other translations just read Everyone without adding the unnecessary "from." See ESV, Mounce and ICB.

In Acts 2:5 from is directly translated because "apo" (meaning from or out of) is in the text. Ditto 1 Thessalonians 5:22 and 2 Thessalonians 3:6.

2 Timothy 4:18 also has "apo." As does Titus 2:14.

3 John 1:12 has "hypo."

Thus the mistranslation of adding "from" to reverse the meaning in Revelation 5:9 is a mangled translation of the text.

 

[Van]

Does denying the Master bought those heading for destruction bring destruction? See 2 Peter 2:1

 

[Martin Marprelate]

NASB renders "pas" G3956 as from every which is consistent with our of every. And the NKJV reverse interlinear has the Greek word "ek" (out from) in its Greek text (TR), but no such word appears in the NASB critical text (CT)

According to the UBS (4th Edition Revised) Greek New Testament, which follows the Critical Text, ek is in every Greek MS without exception. There are other places in Revelation 5:9 where TR differs from CT, but not in the matter of ek, which means literally 'out of.'
Perhaps others have the latest Nestle-Aland Greek NT and can tell us what that says.
One might also care to look at Revelation 7:9, where this very same crowd, ' Of [ek] all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues' are pictured standing and worshiping before the throne of God and the Lamb. Again, there does not appear to be any manuscript that does not contain ek.

 

[Van]

According to the UBS (4th Edition Revised) Greek New Testament, which follows the Critical Text, ek is in every Greek MS without exception. There are other places in Revelation 5:9 where TR differs from CT, but not in the matter of ek, which means literally 'out of.'
Perhaps others have the latest Nestle-Aland Greek NT and can tell us what that says.
One might also care to look at Revelation 7:9, where this very same crowd, ' Of [ek] all nations, tribes, peoples and tongues' are pictured standing and worshiping before the throne of God and the Lamb. Again, there does not appear to be any manuscript that does not contain ek.

Every once in a great while, one of my bible study posts is found, by a contrary poster, to not only be wrong, but to be very wrong.

Mr. Martin Marprelate has done so this time. My sincere thanks, Martin, for this is one of the reasons I post, is to get help from other bible students. It rarely happens, but when it does, I should not only thank the person helping, but God for His grace.

I was mistaken when I said that "ek" (G1537) was not in the CT. The online Interlinear of the NASB text, that I relied upon as a single source, did not have "ek," but grouped the phrase men from every as the translation of "pas" (G3956).

However when Martin questioned my bogus claim, I checked my printed copy and sure enough, "ek" was right there in the text. My copy is the 21st edition of Eberhard Nestle's Novum Testamentum Gracce.

My bad, my error, my sloppy bible study!

So a literal translation would NOT read, purchased every tribe, language, people and nation. ​

Yet my view as to the actual intended message may still possibly be valid, but the confidence factor goes from probably to only possibly. The clause still could be translated as:

"...purchased from every tribe, language, people and nation.
​

 

[Van]

The Greek preposition "ek" points to the origin of something, or the thing separated from its origin. So purchased originally from every tribe, etc, is the intended meaning. Jesus bought, paid the price with His life, His blood, to provide the means of reconciliation for every tribe, language, people and nation.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

This is indeed a perfectly acceptable translation, but you yourself have claimed that ek has the meaning of 'out of.' You also ignore the fact that these people are purchased [Gk. agorazo] 'for God' with the blood of Christ (NASB etc.). You appear to believe that Christ has purchased every single person who ever lived, but yet the Father does not want His Son's gift. Is that right?
Also, if you look at Revelati

Every once in a great while, one of my bible study posts is found, by a contrary poster, to not only be wrong, but to be very wrong.

Mr. Martin Marprelate has done so this time. My sincere thanks, Martin, for this is one of the reasons I post, is to get help from other bible students. It rarely happens, but when it does, I should not only thank the person helping, but God for His grace.

I was mistaken when I said that "ek" (G1537) was not in the CT. The online Interlinear of the NASB text, that I relied upon as a single source, did not have "ek," but grouped the phrase men from every as the translation of "pas" (G3956).

However when Martin questioned my bogus claim, I checked my printed copy and sure enough, "ek" was right there in the text. My copy is the 21st edition of Eberhard Nestle's Novum Testamentum Gracce.

My bad, my error, my sloppy bible study!

This is a very fulsome apology, and should be accepted by anyone who may have been misled by the O.P. However, the sad fact is that your mistakes do not happen "every once in a great while" - they happens constantly, with almost every post you make. It gives me no pleasure at all to say this, but you have minimal knowledge either of Greek or theology, but you do seem to be suffering from delusions of grandeur. Otherwise you would not start posts headed "Matthew 15::24 re-write" as if you have the ability and spiritual gifts to stand in judgment upon every theologian and Bible translator who ever lived! You trot out one post after another with the greatest confidence and positivity, but they are almost invariably wrong. You have a basic misunderstanding of the way of salvation, but, having adopted an entirely faulty scheme, you spend your time wresting the Scripture to try to make it agree with you.
​

 

[Van]

This is indeed a perfectly acceptable translation, but you yourself have claimed that ek has the meaning of 'out of.' You also ignore the fact that these people are purchased [Gk. agorazo] 'for God' with the blood of Christ (NASB etc.). You appear to believe that Christ has purchased every single person who ever lived, but yet the Father does not want His Son's gift. Is that right?
Also, if you look at Revelati
This is a very fulsome apology, and should be accepted by anyone who may have been misled by the O.P. However, the sad fact is that your mistakes do not happen "every once in a great while" - they happens constantly, with almost every post you make. It gives me no pleasure at all to say this, but you have minimal knowledge either of Greek or theology, but you do seem to be suffering from delusions of grandeur. Otherwise you would not start posts headed "Matthew 15::24 re-write" as if you have the ability and spiritual gifts to stand in judgment upon every theologian and Bible translator who ever lived! You trot out one post after another with the greatest confidence and positivity, but they are almost invariably wrong. You have a basic misunderstanding of the way of salvation, but, having adopted an entirely faulty scheme, you spend your time wresting the Scripture to try to make it agree with you.
​

1) Your claims disparaging me are false.
2) Your claim I "ignore" that "these people" were purchased for God with the blood of Christ is false. See 2 Peter 2:1 which I cited in post #3.
3) Yes Christ purchased the whole of humanity to become the means of reconciliation for the whole of humanity, 1 John 2:2.
4) Your claim that I might believe the Father did not want the gift provided by His Lamb is absurd vile falsehood.
5) I did not say my mistakes happen "every once in a while" Why fabricate absurd nonsense. I said "Every once in a great while one of my bible study posts is found, by a contrary poster, to not only be wrong, but to be very wrong."
6) I am not the one claiming to know that someone else has "delusions of grandeur."
7) Of course I have the ability and spiritual gifts to check to see if a translation agrees with the word of God. To claim believers do not is heresy.
8) Just because you hold faulty beliefs and so my valid beliefs differ does not mean I am wrong.
9) Why charge me with a wrong view of John 3:16, when the TULIP says no one rather than everyone might believe into Christ. Your doctrines claim people are put into Christ not through faith in the truth. I could go on and on as your doctrines nullify scripture.

 

[Van]

One of the contexual meanings of "ek" is "out of" and thus could be understood to mean "originally from."

 

[Van]

The question which my error sidetracked, comes down to "who was purchased" through the blood of Christ. One side says only those to be saved were bought through His blood, whereas the other side, the General Baptists say Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all, because God desires all people to be saved.

If we read 2 Peter 2:1 we see that those heading for swift destruction were purchased, yet afterward they were still heading for destruction. So scripture clearly teaches Jesus "bought" not only those to be redeemed (transferred spiritually into the body of Christ) but also those never to be redeemed, thus heading for destruction.

Once side points to a verse that says the redeemed were bought, and claims that means no one else was bought. Nonsense I know, but that is the claim.