The WILL of God

[Strannik]

[QUOTE = "SavedByGrace, post: 2683285, member: 17370"] один простой вопрос, вы действительно понимаете английский язык? Ваши ответы - ерунда! [/ QUOTE]
I'm sorry, but it seems to me that you and Yeshua 1 just didn't understand each other. You seem to be defending the same thing. It seemed to me that Yeshua 1 was also against the illusions of Calvinism.
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On my own behalf I can add from the Word of God to the refutation of the teachings of Calvinism here is another one:

1 Therefore I urge that first of all supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings are made for all men; 2 to kings and all who are in power; that we may lead a quiet and peaceful life with all piety and honesty. "For this is good and pleasing to our Saviour God, who wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. Ибо For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; ⁶ Who gave himself a ransom for all to testify in his own time. Therefore I am made a preacher and an apostle (I speak the truth in Christ and do not lie as a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth) 1 Timothy 2: 1-7
© The Bible Online, 2003-2021.
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So we can clearly see here that the Lord God has decreed that all people will be saved, but the people themselves do not all want this.

 

[Strannik]

How can I disable emoticons in the message text?

 

[SavedByGrace]

How can I disable emoticons in the message text?

Edit the text and place the cursor behind the imoji and remove it

 

[AustinC]

So we can clearly see here that the Lord God has ordained that all people would be saved, but people themselves do not all want this.

Strannik, you are saying that God is weak while man overpowers God's ordination. You are wrong and speaking falsely.
What ere my God ordains is right.
No human can defeat the ordination of God.

If God ordains that humans will be saved, then all will be saved. Since not all are saved, this means God has not ordained that all will be saved.

 

[John of Japan]

I don't usually participate in these Cal/Arm discussions--don't have the time nor care to. However, I can't help but insert a relevant Scripture here:

Luke 6:30, "But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him." The Greek word here for "counsel" is boule (βουλή), defined by Friberg's Analytical Lexicon, "(1) as an inward thought process leading toward a decision deliberation, motive ( 1C 4.5); (2) as the result of inner deliberation resolve, decision, purpose, plan ( AC 5.38); (3) as the result of community deliberation counsel (AC 27.12 ); as the divine will counsel, purpose (AC 2.23)."

Interestingly enough, this is the same Greek word used for God's eternal plan for Christ on the cross as stated by Peter: "Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel (boule) and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain" (Acts 2:23).

Obvious conclusion: It was God's will for the Pharisees to be saved, but they rejected salvation.

 

[SavedByGrace]

I'm sorry, but it seems to me that you and Yeshua 1 just didn't understand each other. You seem to be defending the same thing. It seemed to me that Yeshua 1 was also against the illusions of Calvinism.

how do you arrive at this? Yeshua1 is a Calvinist, and I am not!

 

[SavedByGrace]

Obvious conclusion: It was God's will for the Pharisees to be saved, but they rejected salvation.

don't normally reply here, but had to as you have made some very good points!

 

[Strannik]

Strannik, you are saying that God is weak while man overpowers God's ordination. You are wrong and speaking falsely.
What ere my God ordains is right.
No human can defeat the ordination of God.

If God ordains that humans will be saved, then all will be saved. Since not all are saved, this means God has not ordained that all will be saved.

I say that it is not God who is weak, but God Who has given us free will and does not force us into heaven, just as He does not force us into hell. We make the choice of all this ourselves

¹⁵ And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. ¹⁶ And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods; Joshua 24:15-16
© Библия Онлайн, 2003-2021.

¹⁵ See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; ¹⁶ In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. ¹⁷ But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; ¹⁸ I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. ¹⁹ I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: ²⁰ That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.Deuteronomy 30:15-20
© Библия Онлайн, 2003-2021.
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If nothing depends on people and we are just puppets in the hands of the Most High, then what were these words of God for?

 

[Strannik]

how do you arrive at this? Yeshua1 is a Calvinist, and I am not!

Just Yeshua 1 wrote:
"Didn't you read that I said that God allows our decisions,"

That is, the translator translated to me that God recognizes a person's choice, although He determines or more precisely corrects His will in relation to this person.

 

[SavedByGrace]

Just Yeshua 1 wrote:
"Didn't you read that I said that God allows our decisions,"

That is, the translator translated to me that God recognizes a person's choice, although He determines or more precisely corrects His will in relation to this person.

Ask him if this is what he meant

 

[AustinC]

I say that it is not God who is weak, but God Who has given us free will and does not force us into heaven, just as He does not force us into hell. We make the choice of all this ourselves

¹⁵ And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD. ¹⁶ And the people answered and said, God forbid that we should forsake the LORD, to serve other gods; Joshua 24:15-16
[emoji2398] Библия Онлайн, 2003-2021.

¹⁵ See, I have set before thee this day life and good, and death and evil; ¹⁶ In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it. ¹⁷ But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; ¹⁸ I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. ¹⁹ I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live: ²⁰ That thou mayest love the LORD thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the LORD sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.Deuteronomy 30:15-20
[emoji2398] Библия Онлайн, 2003-2021.
================================
If nothing depends on people and we are just puppets in the hands of the Most High, then what were these words of God for?

The Bible not once, says humans, by their free will get saved. It is always, God by his grace, saves.
As for your puppet argument, it is the same argument Paul rejects in Romans 9. If you will not accept what God tells you, then you are walking a dangerous path of disobedience.

Romans 9:6-24

But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring. For this is what the promise said: “About this time next year I will return, and Sarah shall have a son.” And not only so, but also when Rebekah had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of him who calls— she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory— even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

 

[Reformed1689]

It is argued by some, that, if God were to “will, desire, or wish” for something, then this will always happen. And, if it does not, then somehow it is seen as a “failure” on God’s part.

Using this line of argument, verses like 1 Timothy 3-4, and 2 Peter 3:9, which speaks of the “will, desire”, of God, in the salvation of the lost, it is assumed that because God so “desires or wills” “every human being”, to be “saved”, then they “must” be. But, as we know that “every human being”, will not be saved, then God’s “will or desire”, has been “wasted” or a “failure”. This is used to “prove” that God’s “desire/will” cannot mean for “every human being”, and therefore must be taken to mean “the elect”.

“This is good, and it is pleasing in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth” (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

θέλω , “to will, be willing, wish, desire”

“The Lord is not slow to fulfill his promise as some count slowness, but is patient toward you,a]"> not wishing that any should perish, but that all should reach repentance” (2 Peter 3:9)

βαύλομαι, “to will, wish, desire, purpose, be minded, implying more strongly than θέλω”

Then we have passages like that in Ezekiel;

“Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live? ...For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.” (Ezekiel 18:32)

חפץ, “to will, to desire”

In the context it is very clear, that God is speaking about wicked, sinful people, who reject His Ways and Laws. Yet God says of these people, that He does not “will/desire” their eternal death, but, rather that they should “turn” (repent) and live eternally! Now, just because many of these people would still have rejected the Ways of the Lord, and not “turned” to Him in repentance, does this mean that somehow God has failed?

Paul in writing to the Thessalonians, urged them to live holy lives, and to abstain from all sexual immorality. Paul says to them, that this is the “will of God”.

“For this is the will of God, [even] your sanctification, that ye abstain from fornication” (1 Thessalonians 4:3)

Θέλημα, “that which is willed”

πορνεία, “of illicit sexual intercourse in general”`

This command is for all believers. Likewise Peter says in his Letter, that God Commands all believers to be “holy”, because He is “Holy”. It is not just a suggestion, but tells of the Command from God Himself.

“but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.” (1 Peter 1:15-16)

“you shall be holy”, having the force of the imperative

There is no doubt that it is the strong “desire/wish/will” of God, that His children are to live godly lives. Yet, we see from Paul’s Letter to the Corinthians, where he speaks of “carnal Christians”, some who were also guilty of incest, etc. We live in a very fallen and evil world, where many Christians, even leaders, are not living godly lives, and some have also “fallen away” from the Faith, because of their sinful lives. It is no doubt as seen from the entire Teaching in the Holy Bible, that it is very much the “desire/wish/will”, of God, that every single human being, did not sin, as God cannot “desire/wish/will”, the opposite! Are we to conclude from this, that, since it is very clear, that Christians do not “abstain from sexual immorality”, which must also include sinful thoughts, and do not live lives that are “holy” are pleasing to God, that somehow because God so “willed” this, and it is not the case, that He has “failed”? Absolutely NOT!

The fact that God DOES “desire/wish/will”, that every single human being were to “repent and believe in the Gospel”, about the Lord Jesus Christ. Does NOT mean, that ALL have to do so, and if they did not, then it is God Who has “failed”! Likewise, when the Bible says that Jesus even shed His Blood for the likes of Judas, which is very clear from Luke 22:20-23, that if these were not saved, because they “would not come to Jesus “(John 5:39-40), that somehow the Blood of Jesus has been “wasted”. This is ABSURD! It is evident from the Teaching of the Bible, that God “desiring” certain things does not mean that they are “definite”.

Another post against the Reformed position that is full of strawman arguments, Scripture out of context, and utter nonsense.

 

[SavedByGrace]

utter nonsense.

like you own "theology" on this!

 

[37818]

. . . it is very clear that the reformed/calvinists preach what Paul calls "another gospel" which is a FALSE one

Just making that accusation does not make it true. It was bad enough what you actually had presented in the OP was not addressed.

 

[Strannik]

[QUOTE = "AustinC, post: 2683476, member: 16342"] Библия ни разу не говорит, что люди по своей свободной воле спасаются. Всегда спасает Бог по своей милости.
Что касается вашего марионеточного аргумента, то это тот же аргумент, который Павел отвергает в Послании к римлянам 9. Если вы не примете того, что говорит вам Бог, то вы идете опасным путем непослушания.

Римлянам 9: 6-24

Но это не значит, что слово Божье не сбылось. Ибо не все, кто произошел от Израиля, принадлежат Израилю, и не все дети Авраама, потому что они его потомки, но «через Исаака будут называться потомки ваши». Это означает, что не плотские дети являются детьми Бога, но дети обетования считаются потомками. Ибо вот что было сказано в обещании: «Примерно в это же время в следующем году я вернусь, и у Сарры будет сын». И не только так, но также и тогда, когда Ревекка зачала детей от одного человека, нашего праотца Исаака, хотя они еще не родились и не сделали ничего хорошего или плохого - для того, чтобы Божья цель избрания могла продолжаться не из-за дел, но из-за того, кто звонит - ей сказали: «Старший будет служить младшему». Как написано: «Я любил Иакова, а Исава ненавидел. «Что мы тогда скажем? Есть ли несправедливость со стороны Бога? Ни в коем случае! Ибо он говорит Моисею:«Кого помилую, помилую, и кого сострадал - пожалею». Значит, это зависит не от человеческой воли или усилий, а от милосердного Бога. Ибо Писание говорит фараону: «Для того Я воздвиг тебя, чтобы явить в тебе силу мою и чтобы имя Мое было провозглашено по всей земле».Итак, он милует, кого хочет, и ожесточает, кого хочет. Тогда ты скажешь мне: «Почему он все еще придирается? Ибо кто может сопротивляться его воле? » Но кто ты, о человек, чтобы отвечать Богу? Скажет ли то, что вылеплено, своему создателю: «Почему ты сделал меня таким?» Разве горшечник не имеет права над глиной, чтобы сделать из той же смеси один сосуд для почетного употребления, а другой для бесчестного употребления? Что, если Бог, желая явить Свой гнев и явить Свою силу, с большим терпением претерпел сосуды гнева, приготовленные для разрушения, чтобы возвещать богатство своей славы для сосудов милосердия, которые Он заранее приготовил для славы - даже нас, которых он призвал, не только из евреев, но и из язычников? [/ЦИТИРОВАТЬ]

14-18 здесь мы видим, что Бог милует, кого хочет, и эта Милость Бога не зависит от того, насколько мы праведны и насколько усердно мы исполняем Закон по плоти (как Павел сказал в другом месте: «Бог не ест и пей, но в праведной жизни ".
------------------------------
19-33, ссылаясь на 19-22, кальвинисты упускают из виду контекст того, что Павел здесь пишет евреям в рассеянии, живущем в городе Риме. Многие евреи тогда, как и сейчас, задавались вопросом, как Бог спас язычников не через плотское и буквальное исполнение Закона Моисея, а через веру в Распятого и Воскресшего Христа. Здесь Павел объясняет евреям, что это не их дело - знать, почему Бог внезапно (как это могло показаться) решил заменить Ветхий Завет на Новый. Здесь апостол, вспоминая пророков Осию и Исайю, напоминает, что Бог просто предупредил, что независимо от того, сколько евреев было, небольшая часть будет спасена из-за отступничества и просто мертвого соблюдения традиций Закона, но многие язычники будут спасены, не соблюдая того же Закона по плоти,

 

[SavedByGrace]

Just making that accusation does not make it true. It was bad enough what you actually had presented in the OP was not addressed.

 

[Reformed1689]

like you own "theology" on this!

Well to have sound Theology one must look at context, not just do word studies.

 

[SavedByGrace]

[QUOTE = "AustinC, post: 2683476, member: 16342"] Библия ни разу не говорит, что люди по своей свободной воле спасаются. Всегда спасает Бог по своей милости.
Что касается вашего марионеточного аргумента, то это тот же аргумент, который Павел отвергает в Послании к римлянам 9. Если вы не примете того, что говорит вам Бог, то вы идете опасным путем непослушания.

Римлянам 9: 6-24

Но это не значит, что слово Божье не сбылось. Ибо не все, кто произошел от Израиля, принадлежат Израилю, и не все дети Авраама, потому что они его потомки, но «через Исаака будут называться потомки ваши». Это означает, что не плотские дети являются детьми Бога, но дети обетования считаются потомками. Ибо вот что было сказано в обещании: «Примерно в это же время в следующем году я вернусь, и у Сарры будет сын». И не только так, но также и тогда, когда Ревекка зачала детей от одного человека, нашего праотца Исаака, хотя они еще не родились и не сделали ничего хорошего или плохого - для того, чтобы Божья цель избрания могла продолжаться не из-за дел, но из-за того, кто звонит - ей сказали: «Старший будет служить младшему». Как написано: «Я любил Иакова, а Исава ненавидел. «Что мы тогда скажем? Есть ли несправедливость со стороны Бога? Ни в коем случае! Ибо он говорит Моисею:«Кого помилую, помилую, и кого сострадал - пожалею». Значит, это зависит не от человеческой воли или усилий, а от милосердного Бога. Ибо Писание говорит фараону: «Для того Я воздвиг тебя, чтобы явить в тебе силу мою и чтобы имя Мое было провозглашено по всей земле».Итак, он милует, кого хочет, и ожесточает, кого хочет. Тогда ты скажешь мне: «Почему он все еще придирается? Ибо кто может сопротивляться его воле? » Но кто ты, о человек, чтобы отвечать Богу? Скажет ли то, что вылеплено, своему создателю: «Почему ты сделал меня таким?» Разве горшечник не имеет права над глиной, чтобы сделать из той же смеси один сосуд для почетного употребления, а другой для бесчестного употребления? Что, если Бог, желая явить Свой гнев и явить Свою силу, с большим терпением претерпел сосуды гнева, приготовленные для разрушения, чтобы возвещать богатство своей славы для сосудов милосердия, которые Он заранее приготовил для славы - даже нас, которых он призвал, не только из евреев, но и из язычников? [/ЦИТИРОВАТЬ]

14-18 здесь мы видим, что Бог милует, кого хочет, и эта Милость Бога не зависит от того, насколько мы праведны и насколько усердно мы исполняем Закон по плоти (как Павел сказал в другом месте: «Бог не ест и пей, но в праведной жизни ".
------------------------------
19-33, ссылаясь на 19-22, кальвинисты упускают из виду контекст того, что Павел здесь пишет евреям в рассеянии, живущем в городе Риме. Многие евреи тогда, как и сейчас, задавались вопросом, как Бог спас язычников не через плотское и буквальное исполнение Закона Моисея, а через веру в Распятого и Воскресшего Христа. Здесь Павел объясняет евреям, что это не их дело - знать, почему Бог внезапно (как это могло показаться) решил заменить Ветхий Завет на Новый. Здесь апостол, вспоминая пророков Осию и Исайю, напоминает, что Бог просто предупредил, что независимо от того, сколько евреев было, небольшая часть будет спасена из-за отступничества и просто мертвого соблюдения традиций Закона, но многие язычники будут спасены, не соблюдая того же Закона по плоти,

Don't think that anyone can understand what you have posted

 

[Reformed1689]

Only a "reformed" person who has very little knowledge of what the Bible actually teaches, finds what the Bible says to be funny! Shows the shallowness of their respect for God's Word

I don't think the individual in question found what the Bible says to be funny, rather your ludicrous take on it and strawman arguments about the Reformed position. There is a difference. Last time I checked, you weren't Scripture.

 

[Reformed1689]

What did you exactly from someone who is so blinded to the Wonderful Gospel of salvation to WHOEVER wills to believe. On the subject of salvation it is very clear that the reformed/calvinists preach what Paul calls "another gospel" which is a FALSE one

And who in their natural state wills to believe? Nobody. That is in Scripture.