also creates a situation where God Himself is fixed and stuck, bound by His future fully, and that he literally cannot exercise "free will"
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The will of God
- Thread starter freeatlast
- Start date
also creates a situation where God Himself is fixed and stuck, bound by His future fully, and that he literally cannot exercise "free will"
How God's will is used in Scripture
Here is how we see God's will being spoken of in Scripture.
God's decretive will - This is always accomplished.
Job 23:13, "But He is unique and who can turn Him? And what His soul desires, that He does."
Psalm 33:11, "The counsel of the Lord stands forever. The plans of His heart from generation to generation."
Isaiah 14:24, "The Lord of hosts has sworn saying, 'Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand.'"
Isaiah 46:10, "Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done, 'Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure’".
Acts 17:24, "The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands."
God's preceptive will - This is not always accomplished.
Rom. 12:2, "And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect."
Eph. 6:6, "not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.".
1 Thess. 4:3-6, "For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you."
God in his sovereignty has allowed for men to disobey him. Nothing is down outside of His sovereignty. But God has allowed his preceptive will(What God's laws) to not always happen. So when we see passages like I Thess 4 where we know that there is sexual immorality happening all the time, we see God's will not being done. But "will" here is being used a little bit different from "will" when we speak of his decrees.
Here is how we see God's will being spoken of in Scripture.
God's decretive will - This is always accomplished.
Job 23:13, "But He is unique and who can turn Him? And what His soul desires, that He does."
Psalm 33:11, "The counsel of the Lord stands forever. The plans of His heart from generation to generation."
Isaiah 14:24, "The Lord of hosts has sworn saying, 'Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand.'"
Isaiah 46:10, "Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done, 'Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure’".
Acts 17:24, "The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands."
God's preceptive will - This is not always accomplished.
Rom. 12:2, "And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect."
Eph. 6:6, "not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.".
1 Thess. 4:3-6, "For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you."
God in his sovereignty has allowed for men to disobey him. Nothing is down outside of His sovereignty. But God has allowed his preceptive will(What God's laws) to not always happen. So when we see passages like I Thess 4 where we know that there is sexual immorality happening all the time, we see God's will not being done. But "will" here is being used a little bit different from "will" when we speak of his decrees.
Here is how we see God's will being spoken of in Scripture.
God's decretive will - This is always accomplished.
Job 23:13, "But He is unique and who can turn Him? And what His soul desires, that He does."
Psalm 33:11, "The counsel of the Lord stands forever. The plans of His heart from generation to generation."
Isaiah 14:24, "The Lord of hosts has sworn saying, 'Surely, just as I have intended so it has happened, and just as I have planned so it will stand.'"
Isaiah 46:10, "Declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things which have not been done, 'Saying, ‘My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure’".
Acts 17:24, "The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands."
God's preceptive will - This is not always accomplished.
Rom. 12:2, "And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what the will of God is, that which is good and acceptable and perfect."
Eph. 6:6, "not by way of eyeservice, as men-pleasers, but as slaves of Christ, doing the will of God from the heart.".
1 Thess. 4:3-6, "For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God; 6 and that no man transgress and defraud his brother in the matter because the Lord is the avenger in all these things, just as we also told you before and solemnly warned you."
God in his sovereignty has allowed for men to disobey him. Nothing is down outside of His sovereignty. But God has allowed his preceptive will(What God's laws) to not always happen. So when we see passages like I Thess 4 where we know that there is sexual immorality happening all the time, we see God's will not being done. But "will" here is being used a little bit different from "will" when we speak of his decrees.
:thumbsup::applause::thumbsup:
Icon.....You pulled out only the word "us-ward" and you assumed...that it MUST mean that "us-ward" means the elect....and only the elect, that is totally unwarranted. but you have isolated that one word...And then freely felt the authority to start talking about sheep exclusively. Who in 1 Peter is threatened with perishing? The elect? Who needs to "come to repentance"? The elect?
Who is it that God is waiting on? It is the yet unrepentant (even these scoffers) for whom he delays....You cannot isolate the passage in 2 peter from the passage in 1 peter The one which DOES help modify what is being spoken of. which reads:1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
He was "waiting" in the days of Noah....NOT for Noah and his immediate family (they already served God, Icon...) Who was God waiting for?
Noah was a 2Pe 2:5 And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth [person], a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly; To whom was Noah preaching? Himself and his family, or to the unrepentant. Probably not his family, because God has already told Noah that he was to take his family with him. Gen 6:18 But with thee will I establish my covenant; and thou shalt come into the ark, thou, and thy sons, and thy wife, and thy sons' wives with thee. He waited in the days of Noah...because of longsuffering for the still unrepentant...not for Noah and his family who were in no need of repentance....Enoch was not preaching to Noah, Methuselah was not a warning to Noah...He was a warning to the non-repentant. Those who would actually PERISH.
Let the Apostle Peter, Icon, tell you to whom he is refering. not James White.
Your argument thus far consists of:
1.) assuming that "us-ward" means (my pre-determined) wherein at face value, it might just as easily mean (mankind as a whole) and then vs. 9 does indeed help to modify who God is waiting for:
"Not willing that any...but that ALL"
2.) Attempting to imply that God was "waiting" in the days of the flood for Noah. (whom God did not need to wait for)
You then proceed to quote vs. 11 on and I must assume intentionally skip vs. 10, where he changes topic from the flood...to the coming day of judgement...and tells us what he is trying to convince us to do what manner [of persons] ought ye to be in as you so kindly quoted in vs. 11 Nothing in the remaining portion of the chapter is speaking of anything salvific. Peter is NOW speaking of sanctification and perfection....in vs. 9...he was still speaking about salvation...again...refer to 1Pe 3:20 Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water. 1Pe 3:21 The like figure whereunto [even] baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ: Refer to 1 PETER. When the FLOOD is mentioned....and it is still speaking of salvation to those who remain threatened with perishing...unlike the elect.
You clearly have missed the passage ,and show no ability to pick up the context,as well as you misunderstand God's longsuffering...
21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
Clearly I have shown what the context is,and have taught on this passage long before I knew James White...although he has the passage exactly correct as do all pastors who know the truth. I have offered some on the passage there is much more....but you do not really want an answer so I will leave it here for now:thumbsup::thumbsup:
Tom Butler
New Member
I think Iconoclast has the better of his debate with Heir of Salvation. His interpretation of "us-ward" in II Peter 3:9 is correct, in my view. Usward points to a specific group of people.
A good word study would to check "all" in the scriptures. You'll find a lot of passages where "all" does not mean everybody without exception. Context is king.
Here is a good view of the context of "long-suffering."
A good word study would to check "all" in the scriptures. You'll find a lot of passages where "all" does not mean everybody without exception. Context is king.
Here is a good view of the context of "long-suffering."
It is not an act of longsuffering mercy toward the non-elect for God to withhold the return of Christ. Each day the non-elect are adding to their eternal suffering by further despising the gospel (if they have had it preached to them) and by adding to their store of sins. Moreover every day the number of accountable sinners in the world is increasing. Thus the withholding of Christ’s return is but increasing the final population of Hell. "All" is explained by the word "usward." It is "all" the elect. God is waiting until, in His sovereign providence and by His Spirit, they are brought to repentance and faith. Thomas Paul Simmons The Systematic Study of Bible Doctrine 1935
GodisGreat
New Member
Icon.....You pulled out only the word "us-ward" and you assumed...that it MUST mean that "us-ward" means the elect....and only the elect, that is totally unwarranted. but you have isolated that one word...And then freely felt the authority to start talking about sheep exclusively. Who in 1 Peter is threatened with perishing? The elect? Who needs to "come to repentance"? The elect?
Who is it that God is waiting on? It is the yet unrepentant (even these scoffers) for whom he delays.
Your argument thus far consists of:
1.) assuming that "us-ward" means (my pre-determined) wherein at face value, it might just as easily mean (mankind as a whole) and then vs. 9 does indeed help to modify who God is waiting for:
I assume that the phrase "us-ward" was common at some time but is really confusing today so it would be helpful to come to concensus on a better understood word or phrase instead.
Someone is helping me understand the doctrine of election and people's choice so I am no scholar on this at all.
Who in 1 Peter is threatened with perishing? The elect? Who needs to "come to repentance"? The elect? Who is it that God is waiting on? It is the yet unrepentant (even these scoffers) for whom he delays.
This could be the elect. If God creates people knowing their eternal destination, then He could wait for the day that they believe. Until that time the elect are part of the unrepentant of course. I do not see a problem with that at all. Does anyone?