The Willingness of Men 2

[MB]

My goodness, you want to ignore the whole of Romans. Look at you, desperate to change what Paul wrote.

How dare him to put scripture back to the way is was. I mean the Gall ad finitum has to try and put back what you have tried to destroy with your Calvinism. Hey that is what Calvinist do they try to daze and confuse their opponents with a bunch of nonsense and then say there view is scriptural. I can say this, the bull is getting to be so deep we're all going to have to start carrying shovels. It's really sad you try so hard to try and daze and confuse others with your nonsense. You ought to be ashamed.
MB

 

[Silverhair]

There is nothing in Romans 10 that teaches free will.
You desperately want God to take the back seat while you declare yourself as choice maker, but Romans 10 never teaches free will.

Austin if you cannot see man has a free will in the text of Rom 10:13-15 then you are just willfully blind. You have lost yourself in your calvinist theology.

The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action.
The middle voice indicates the subject performing an action upon himself (reflexive action) or for his own benefit.
The passive voice represents the subject as being the recipient of the action.

Do you know which voice is missing in this text? The passive and why is that? Well if your not sure it is because the individual is the one doing the action. They hear the gospel, they believe the gospel, they call on the lord. That whether you like it or not is man exercising their God given free will.

Rom 10:13 For G1063 "whoever G3956 G3739 G302 calls on G1941 (G5672) the name G3686 of the LORD G2962 shall be saved G4982 (G5701)."

Rom 10:14 How G4459 then G3767 shall they call on G1941 (G5698) Him in G1519 whom G3739 they have G4100 (00) not G3756 believed G4100 (G5656)? And G1161 how G4459 shall they believe in Him G4100 (G5692) of whom G3739 they have G191 (00) not G3756 heard G191 (G5656)? And G1161 how G4459 shall they hear G191 (G5692) without G5565 a preacher G2784 (G5723)? NKJV


For those the like the KJV bible

Rom 10:13 ForG3956 G1063 whosoeverG3739 G302 shall call uponG1941 [G5672] the nameG3686 of the LordG2962 shall be savedG4982 [G5701].

Rom 10:14 HowG4459 thenG3767 shall they call onG1941 [G5698] him inG1519 whomG3739 they haveG4100 notG3756 believedG4100 [G5656]? andG1161 howG4459 shall they believe inG4100 [G5692] him of whomG3739 they haveG191 notG3756 heardG191 [G5656]? andG1161 howG4459 shall they hearG191 [G5692] withoutG5565 a preacherG2784 [G5723]? KJV



calls on G1941 (G5672)

G5672

Tense-Aorist See [G5777]

Voice-Middle See [G5785]

Mood -Subjunctive See [G5792]

The middle voice indicates
the subject performing an action upon himself (reflexive action) or for his own benefit.


shall they call on G1941 (G5698)

G5698

Tense-Future See [G5776]

Voice-Middle See [G5785]

Mood -Indicative See [G5791]



believed G4100 (G5656)

G5656

Tense-Aorist See [G5777]

Voice-Active See [G5784]

Mood -Indicative See [G5791]


The active voice
represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action.

shall they believe in Him G4100 (G5692)

G5692

Tense-Future See [G5776]

Voice-Active See [G5784]

Mood -Indicative See [G5791]


heard G191 (G5656)

G5656

Tense-Aorist See [G5777]

Voice-Active See [G5784]

Mood -Indicative See [G5791]


shall they hear G191 (G5692)

G5692

Tense-Future See [G5776]

Voice-Active See [G5784]

Mood -Indicative See [G5791]

 

[MB]

Well I suggest that you look a bit harder. I have a Green's Interlinear, and I can assure you that it's there.
It's in verse one.

What are you so excited about? As you can see I'm not perfect. Neither is anyone here.
MB

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Do you know which voice is missing in this text? The passive and why is that? Well if your not sure it is because the individual is the one doing the action. They hear the gospel, they believe the gospel, they call on the lord. That whether you like it or not is man exercising their God given free will.
Rom 10:13 For G1063 "whoever G3956 G3739 G302 calls on G1941 (G5672) the name G3686 of the LORD G2962 shall be saved G4982 (G5701)."

Rom 10:14 How G4459 then G3767 shall they call on G1941 (G5698) Him in G1519 whom G3739 they have G4100 (00) not G3756 believed G4100 (G5656)? And G1161 how G4459 shall they believe in Him G4100 (G5692) of whom G3739 they have G191 (00) not G3756 heard G191 (G5656)? And G1161 how G4459 shall they hear G191 (G5692) without G5565 a preacher G2784 (G5723)? NKJV

Do you really suppose that Calvinists believe that God saves people who don't believe?
BTW, 'Shall be saved' in verse 13 is passive. People don't save themselves.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

What are you so excited about? As you can see I'm not perfect. Neither is anyone here.
MB

There words you are casting about for here are "Sorry for my mistake." That's OK; we all make them.

 

[Iconoclast]

"Silverhair,

Glad to see that you agree with what Paul wrote, I have a few comments to make on that that I know you will disagree with but then again it's not me that you will be disagreeing with.

When you do not understand Paul, it is you we are disagreeing with.

Rom 10:12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord over all is rich to all who call upon Him.

Rom 10:13 For "WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED."

This is a plain statement of fact. It means what it says.

So now we know that it is "WHOEVER" not just the calvinist elect.

This verse does not clarify anything as you suppose it does. It is the elect that are the whoever. They believe as God effectually works in them.
The verse says whoever......only the ELECT will believe.

Well that is unless you decide to disagree with Christ Jesus.

No, we agree with Jesus, like right here;
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The whosoever=THE ELECT

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.[/QUOTE]

Yes, as you know it is actually every believing one=THE ELECT

God does not ask men to behave in order to be saved, but to believe. It is faith in Christ Jesus that saves the sinner.

Faith is the instrumentality...God is the author and Finisher of saving faith.

How do we know that man can be saved because of his faith[/QUOTE]

Never in the scripture is man said to be saved because of faith as if he had it.
It is always by, or through faith....NEVER BECAUSE OF FAITH. NOT ONCE, NEVER, IT IS NOT THERE.

Num 21:8 Then the LORD said to Moses, "Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live."

You highlight the wrong part, what a surprise...the key part is...WHEN HE LOOKS at it,shall live.
Everyone bitten was not granted faith to look and live.

Num 21:9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.

Are we to understand this as it was only those that God chose would look toward the bronze serpent and be healed because then we would have to say that only the chosen ones were sinners as they were the only ones that got bitten.

Not at all....all were bitten as all died in Adam. It was the elect who looked in faith.

Joh 3:14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up,

Joh 3:15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life.

Every believing one....see how nicely it clears it up.

 

[Silverhair]

Do you really suppose that Calvinists believe that God saves people who don't believe?
BTW, 'Shall be saved' in verse 13 is passive. People don't save themselves.

I have never said man saves himself that is just one of those canards that calvinists love to throw around. Anyone that thinks that man can save himself is delusional. And those that keep putting that forward as an accusation are just desperate.

But, and this is the point I was showing, man has to hear, believe and call on the Lord before they are saved. Your weak attempt to change the subject just shows you cannot escape the logic of the text. Man has a God given free will.

My question for you Martin is "Do you really think that God saves those that don't believe?" You must as your theology states that you have to be born again/regenerated so you can believe. Even your Calvinist Ordo Salutis states that.

Man has to believe in Christ Jesus before they are saved. Now I know you are going to disagree but let us see what the bible says.
Regeneration G3824
new birth, reproduction, renewal, recreation, regeneration Thayer
Born G1080
Again G509
from above, from a higher place Thayer

So yes I agree man is saved by God and it is because of his faith in our risen Lord and not unto faith as Calvinists like to posit.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Faith is the evidence of salvation not the cause.

 

[Silverhair]

"Silverhair,


When you do not understand Paul, it is you we are disagreeing with.



This is a plain statement of fact. It means what it says.



This verse does not clarify anything as you suppose it does. It is the elect that are the whoever. They believe as God effectually works in them.
The verse says whoever......only the ELECT will believe.



No, we agree with Jesus, like right here;
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

39 And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.

41 The Jews then murmured at him, because he said, I am the bread which came down from heaven.

42 And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how is it then that he saith, I came down from heaven?

43 Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

The whosoever=THE ELECT

All you are doing is reading your Calvinist theology into the text. If and when you actually stop and read the text you will see that Calvinism does not work. We can only hope that at some point in your life you will think through Calvinism to it's logical conclusion and see it for what it is. And that it is not the truth of scripture. I have pointed out just some of the problems with LBCF and could show those in TULIP but unless you are willing to be honest you will just continue to spout the Calvinist line. So sad.

 

[Silverhair]

Faith is the evidence of salvation not the cause.

You have been reading to many Calvinist books. Try reading the bible it will clear up all your misconceptions.

 

[AustinC]

How dare him to put scripture back to the way is was. I mean the Gall ad finitum has to try and put back what you have tried to destroy with your Calvinism. Hey that is what Calvinist do they try to daze and confuse their opponents with a bunch of nonsense and then say there view is scriptural. I can say this, the bull is getting to be so deep we're all going to have to start carrying shovels. It's really sad you try so hard to try and daze and confuse others with your nonsense. You ought to be ashamed.
MB

When you actually read the whole letter to the Romans, let me know.
There are countless intra-biblical cults that pick a verse and interpret without ever going beyond that.
The fact that you are promoting hunt and peck bible interpretation says more about you than it says about anything else.

 

[AustinC]

Austin if you cannot see man has a free will in the text of Rom 10:13-15 then you are just willfully blind. You have lost yourself in your calvinist theology.

The active voice represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action.
The middle voice indicates the subject performing an action upon himself (reflexive action) or for his own benefit.
The passive voice represents the subject as being the recipient of the action.

Do you know which voice is missing in this text? The passive and why is that? Well if your not sure it is because the individual is the one doing the action. They hear the gospel, they believe the gospel, they call on the lord. That whether you like it or not is man exercising their God given free will.

Rom 10:13 For G1063 "whoever G3956 G3739 G302 calls on G1941 (G5672) the name G3686 of the LORD G2962 shall be saved G4982 (G5701)."

Rom 10:14 How G4459 then G3767 shall they call on G1941 (G5698) Him in G1519 whom G3739 they have G4100 (00) not G3756 believed G4100 (G5656)? And G1161 how G4459 shall they believe in Him G4100 (G5692) of whom G3739 they have G191 (00) not G3756 heard G191 (G5656)? And G1161 how G4459 shall they hear G191 (G5692) without G5565 a preacher G2784 (G5723)? NKJV


For those the like the KJV bible

Rom 10:13 ForG3956 G1063 whosoeverG3739 G302 shall call uponG1941 [G5672] the nameG3686 of the LordG2962 shall be savedG4982 [G5701].

Rom 10:14 HowG4459 thenG3767 shall they call onG1941 [G5698] him inG1519 whomG3739 they haveG4100 notG3756 believedG4100 [G5656]? andG1161 howG4459 shall they believe inG4100 [G5692] him of whomG3739 they haveG191 notG3756 heardG191 [G5656]? andG1161 howG4459 shall they hearG191 [G5692] withoutG5565 a preacherG2784 [G5723]? KJV



calls on G1941 (G5672)

G5672

Tense-Aorist See [G5777]

Voice-Middle See [G5785]

Mood -Subjunctive See [G5792]

The middle voice indicates
the subject performing an action upon himself (reflexive action) or for his own benefit.


shall they call on G1941 (G5698)

G5698

Tense-Future See [G5776]

Voice-Middle See [G5785]

Mood -Indicative See [G5791]



believed G4100 (G5656)

G5656

Tense-Aorist See [G5777]

Voice-Active See [G5784]

Mood -Indicative See [G5791]


The active voice
represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action.

shall they believe in Him G4100 (G5692)

G5692

Tense-Future See [G5776]

Voice-Active See [G5784]

Mood -Indicative See [G5791]


heard G191 (G5656)

G5656

Tense-Aorist See [G5777]

Voice-Active See [G5784]

Mood -Indicative See [G5791]


shall they hear G191 (G5692)

G5692

Tense-Future See [G5776]

Voice-Active See [G5784]

Mood -Indicative See [G5791]

So...where is free will in that post you just provided?
Of course you completely ignore Romans 8 where Paul introduces election and predestination, then goes into Romans 9 to show that both gentiles and jews are elect, which leads us to the elect believing in Romans 10. But, why should you care about the whole, when a cherry pick theology fits your philosophy much better.

 

[AustinC]

All you are doing is reading your Calvinist theology into the text. If and when you actually stop and read the text you will see that Calvinism does not work. We can only hope that at some point in your life you will think through Calvinism to it's logical conclusion and see it for what it is. And that it is not the truth of scripture. I have pointed out just some of the problems with LBCF and could show those in TULIP but unless you are willing to be honest you will just continue to spout the Calvinist line. So sad.

Nope. Just reading the whole of scripture and seeing that God is a covenant making God who chooses whom he wills to save. This is repeated in the Bible from Adam to Revelation. Yet, you deny, deny, deny.

 

[Iconoclast]

All you are doing is reading your Calvinist theology into the text. If and when you actually stop and read the text you will see that Calvinism does not work. We can only hope that at some point in your life you will think through Calvinism to it's logical conclusion and see it for what it is. And that it is not the truth of scripture. I have pointed out just some of the problems with LBCF and could show those in TULIP but unless you are willing to be honest you will just continue to spout the Calvinist line. So sad.

My friend, you have shown no such thing.I quoted the words of Jesus to you from the gospel of John...you identify it as Calvinism. I can live with that.
We use scripture, not carnal logic. Evidently, it is not clear to you yet.
All of The Calvinistic brothers have answered you scripturally step by step all along the way

 

[Iconoclast]

You have been reading to many Calvinist books. Try reading the bible it will clear up all your misconceptions.

You know the worst thing about those Calvinist books??? They are full of scripture in context. Some even exegete the passages. When all these silly attacks come from the little anti-cal posse, they are ineffectual because those studying these dreaded writings are saturated with the truth of scripture and can see the inconsistent protests against truth quite readily.

 

[Silverhair]

You know the worst thing about those Calvinist books??? They are full of scripture in context. Some even exegete the passages. When all these silly attacks come from the little anti-cal posse, they are ineffectual because those studying these dreaded writings are saturated with the truth of scripture and can see the inconsistent protests against truth quite readily.

Ah the arrogance of Calvinists is actually mind boggling. You think you are the only ones that could ever understand scripture as you have a deeper knowledge of same. But then again we know that other group that claimed that don't we GNOSTICS and they were condemned as heretics and rightly so.

You hold to your Calvinist theology and I will hold to the scriptures.

 

[AustinC]

Ah the arrogance of Calvinists is actually mind boggling. You think you are the only ones that could ever understand scripture as you have a deeper knowledge of same. But then again we know that other group that claimed that don't we GNOSTICS and they were condemned as heretics and rightly so.

You hold to your Calvinist theology and I will hold to the scriptures.

Your strawman may help you ignore and deny God's Sovereign choice in redemption, but your claim of holding scripture is as bogus as a 3 dollar bill.

 

[spiceagent11]

The RPW states that men are to worship God in the manner prescribed in scripture and, therefore, cannot worship God in any other manner.

 

[Silverhair]

Your strawman may help you ignore and deny God's Sovereign choice in redemption, but your claim of holding scripture is as bogus as a 3 dollar bill.

Austin I do hope that you will come to a true understanding of scripture so that you can stop with these unfounded accusations. You keep studying and perhaps the light will come on for you.
Your determinism is such a crutch for you because you obviously do not believe you have the capacity to make logical decisions regarding your eternal future. That is why you hold onto Calvinism so tightly that way you are not responsible for any choices they are all made for you.

 

[Silverhair]

The RPW states that men are to worship God in the manner prescribed in scripture and, therefore, cannot worship God in any other manner.

Whats an RPW?