The Willingness of Men 2

[ad finitum]

Honestly, can you provide any passage in the Bible that expresses what you just said?

Have you ever quoted scripture to a Talmudic Jew? What would you imagine the problem with that is? They see the Bible through the lens of the Talmud. The rebbes have taught them the "correct interpretation" of everything. They've taught them the "oral tradition" from the old grey heads of their faith.

A Jew quoted to me some New Testament scripture, "proving" that Christians are taught that Jesus' father was a ghost. How did he do that? He quoted an English translation that said the Holy Ghost came upon Mary after which she was pregnant, proof-texting his point. If people haven't understood what proof-texting is, that illustrates it perfectly.

The funny thing about quoting English translations, to demonstrate the "truth" of Calvinism is that 98% of Bible translators are/were some species of Calvinist. Take for example the translation of 1 Peter 1:1-2. What do you reckon in which verse we find the word translated "elect"? In all English translations, it's verse 2, standing by itself as a clear, unvarnished Calvinist code word. Boom. Calvinism. But the Greek from which they translated it shows it in verse one and it is modifying the word "sojourners", which suggests a translation of "favored sojourners" or "hand-picked to be sojourners". The word is definitely not standing by itself modifying nothing.

So why have translators not corrected this egregious and blatantly biased mis-translation over the years? Because correctly translating it removes a timeless Calvinist proof-text from the layman's arsenal of scriptural defense, taught to him for centuries by his pastors and teachers. If it is corrected, the layman might ask how his Calvinist forebears got this verse so wrong for all these centuries. If they got that one wrong, what about other proof-texts? So translators are reluctant to introduce this kind of doubt because it complicates the goal of "defending the faith" and keeping the sheep in the fold.

So sure, I could quote verses to a Calvinist, but I prefer to do so from a Greek interlinear, to avoid the problems in English translations just mentioned. However, what would a typical Calvinist layman do? He would respond by quoting back to me five different English translations of that passage which all say basically the same thing. As we all know, "five different translators can't all be wrong, can they? Q.E.D."

Previous experience teaches us that quoting Greek to a Calvinist is like trying to explain to Nigel Tufnel that his amplifier that "goes to eleven" is the same as a regular amplifier that goes to 10.

So what's the real problem? It can't be that people don't have a high enough level of education. God does not require advanced education to understand His Word.

A topic for another thread.

You have worked hard to change Paul's words to fit your theory, but you don't provide any teaching by Jesus or the Apostles that support your claim.

People have worked hard to explain Paul's words in their full context. What those hard-working people typically get in reply is Calvinist boilerplate and repetitively misinterpreted proof-texts from the bookshelves of Calvinist guide books.

If a Calvinist from olden times rose from the dead bringing the news that he was wrong, would Calvinists on this side of the turf believe him? What's the punch line from the parable of Lazarus and The Rich Man?

 

[AustinC]

Have you ever quoted scripture to a Talmudic Jew? What would you imagine the problem with that is? They see the Bible through the lens of the Talmud. The rebbes have taught them the "correct interpretation" of everything. They've taught them the "oral tradition" from the old grey heads of their faith.

A Jew quoted to me some New Testament scripture, "proving" that Christians are taught that Jesus' father was a ghost. How did he do that? He quoted an English translation that said the Holy Ghost came upon Mary after which she was pregnant, proof-texting his point. If people haven't understood what proof-texting is, that illustrates it perfectly.

The funny thing about quoting English translations, to demonstrate the "truth" of Calvinism is that 98% of Bible translators are/were some species of Calvinist. Take for example the translation of 1 Peter 1:1-2. What do you reckon in which verse we find the word translated "elect"? In all English translations, it's verse 2, standing by itself as a clear, unvarnished Calvinist code word. Boom. Calvinism. But the Greek from which they translated it shows it in verse one and it is modifying the word "sojourners", which suggests a translation of "favored sojourners" or "hand-picked to be sojourners". The word is definitely not standing by itself modifying nothing.

So why have translators not corrected this egregious and blatantly biased mis-translation over the years? Because correctly translating it removes a timeless Calvinist proof-text from the layman's arsenal of scriptural defense, taught to him for centuries by his pastors and teachers. If it is corrected, the layman might ask how his Calvinist forebears got this verse so wrong for all these centuries. If they got that one wrong, what about other proof-texts? So translators are reluctant to introduce this kind of doubt because it complicates the goal of "defending the faith" and keeping the sheep in the fold.

So sure, I could quote verses to a Calvinist, but I prefer to do so from a Greek interlinear, to avoid the problems in English translations just mentioned. However, what would a typical Calvinist layman do? He would respond by quoting back to me five different English translations of that passage which all say basically the same thing. As we all know, "five different translators can't all be wrong, can they? Q.E.D."

Previous experience teaches us that quoting Greek to a Calvinist is like trying to explain to Nigel Tufnel that his amplifier that "goes to eleven" is the same as a regular amplifier that goes to 10.

So what's the real problem? It can't be that people don't have a high enough level of education. God does not require advanced education to understand His Word.

A topic for another thread.



People have worked hard to explain Paul's words in their full context. What those hard-working people typically get in reply is Calvinist boilerplate and repetitively misinterpreted proof-texts from the bookshelves of Calvinist guide books.

If a Calvinist from olden times rose from the dead bringing the news that he was wrong, would Calvinists on this side of the turf believe him? What's the punch line from the parable of Lazarus and The Rich Man?

Clearly you cannot provide any passages in scripture where the context upholds your philosophy.

This thread can now be closed as you have nothing to provide.

 

[MB]

Clearly you cannot provide any passages in scripture where the context upholds your philosophy.

This thread can now be closed as you have nothing to provide.

You'd really like that idea wouldn't you.
You really hate the willingness of men. Your hatred makes me even more determined to keep it up. You may as well just give up You haven't disproved any thing..You have proved your weak and you haven't any scripture that plainly says man cannot be willing.
MB

 

[MB]

Clearly you cannot provide any passages in scripture where the context upholds your philosophy.

This thread can now be closed as you have nothing to provide.

Open your eyes Austin.
1Ch_28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

1Ch_28:21 And, behold, the courses of the priests and the Levites, even they shall be with thee for all the service of the house of God: and there shall be with thee for all manner of workmanship every willing skilful man

1Ch_29:5 The gold for things of gold, and the silver for things of silver, and for all manner of work to be made by the hands of artificers. And who then is willing to consecrate his service this day unto the LORD?an, for any manner of service: also the princes and all the people will be wholly at thy commandment.

Psa_110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

These verses prove the willingness of men.
MB

 

[AustinC]

You'd really like that idea wouldn't you.
You really hate the willingness of men. Your hatred makes me even more determined to keep it up. You may as well just give up You haven't disproved any thing..You have proved your weak and you haven't any scripture that plainly says man cannot be willing.
MB

It has nothing to do with what I would like. It has everything to do with what God tells us in the Bible.

I provided Romans 8:5-8.
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

I provided Ephesians 2:1-5.
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

I provided Romans 3:10-18.
As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

MB, you keep looking for a loophole to ignore what God tells us. I accept what God tells me...even if it isn't what I like. Will you do the same? The passages I shared are enough. Either you will accept them or you will argue for a loophole.

 

[AustinC]

Open your eyes Austin.
1Ch_28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

1Ch_28:21 And, behold, the courses of the priests and the Levites, even they shall be with thee for all the service of the house of God: and there shall be with thee for all manner of workmanship every willing skilful man

1Ch_29:5 The gold for things of gold, and the silver for things of silver, and for all manner of work to be made by the hands of artificers. And who then is willing to consecrate his service this day unto the LORD?an, for any manner of service: also the princes and all the people will be wholly at thy commandment.

Psa_110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

These verses prove the willingness of men.
MB

LOL, you are desperate for a loophole.

Answer this one thing:
Were Solomon and the Levites chosen and elect by God, or were they pagan peoples who had no relationship with God?

The covenants God made with Abraham and David are irrevocable (see Romans 11). God elected them and chose them to walk as His people. Your verses do not make any argument for your assertion, but they make me chuckle at your cherry picking skills.

 

[ad finitum]

It has nothing to do with what I would like. It has everything to do with what God tells us in the Bible.

I provided Romans 8:5-8.
For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. For to set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

And people choose their walk of their own free will. This verse does not contradict that.

I provided Ephesians 2:1-5.
And you were dead in the trespasses and sins in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience— among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ—by grace you have been saved—

...through faith. Faith is a free will choice. Again, this passage confirms free will.

I provided Romans 3:10-18.
As it is written: “None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one.” “Their throat is an open grave; they use their tongues to deceive.” “The venom of asps is under their lips.” “Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; in their paths are ruin and misery, and the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”

Paul quotes part of Psalm 14:1 which talks about the nature of that species of fool (none of which category are righteous). He also talks about those who have turned aside, which is to say that they have abandoned the straight path or were formerly on the path, who persecute the people of God who are righteous and who have not turned aside. So it's about the righteous being persecuted by categories unrighteous. But the Calvinist makes no attempt to understand the message of the Psalm. They immediate perform surgery on it and extract a single sentence out of its context, thus twisting it to make a Calvinist point about all people born of woman being in this category. That's blatant distortion with malice aforethought. It it plain that that idea is not what Psalm 14 is talking about at all.

And yet well-meaning Christians fall for this distortion, hook, line and sinker. They are led into error and they remain content with it. They are led to believe that some scriptures just bounce around to different topics with every verse, none connected with the previous. This also is an error of judgement and a failure of imagination. The Holy Spirit is not such a simpleton when it comes to His literature.

MB, you keep looking for a loophole to ignore what God tells us. I accept what God tells me...even if it isn't what I like. Will you do the same? The passages I shared are enough. Either you will accept them or you will argue for a loophole.

The bending and twisting of God's Word, to make it say whatever one prefers to hear or for others to hear has been inflicted upon mankind from the very beginning in the Garden. That purported brothers in Christ should do this to each other is frightening.

 

[37818]

...through faith. Faith is a free will choice. Again, this passage confirms free will.

. . . no one understands; no one seeks for God. . . .

How is faith a free will choice? How do we do what we are not willing to do? How does one decide what is true?

 

[ad finitum]

How is faith a free will choice? How do we do what we are not willing to do? How does one decide what is true?

Romans 1. They see, they know and they understand the truth. Some men choose to exchange that truth for something they like better.

 

[ad finitum]

How do we do what we are not willing to do?

Everyone does what they will. If they hear Good News, their will is free to pursue it, or ignore it or even become hostile against it. Attitude toward the truth is a free choice.

God foresaw all free will choices before any creature even existed. He made provision for those whom He foresaw would rejoice at His Good News.

Many born to perfection rejected it and rebelled, falling from Heaven. If a creature is free to reject good, how much more so is he free to despise and reject evil, even if he is powerless to free himself from it.

 

[37818]

Everyone does what they will. If they hear Good News, their will is free to pursue it, or ignore it or even become hostile against it. Attitude toward the truth is a free choice.

God foresaw all free will choices before any creature even existed. He made provision for those whom He foresaw would rejoice at His Good News.

Many born to perfection rejected it and rebelled, falling from Heaven. If a creature is free to reject good, how much more so is he free to despise and reject evil, even if he is powerless to free himself from it.

But how does this answer that question?
How do we do what we are not willing to do, when what we are not willing to do is the only right thing to do?

. . . no one understands; no one seeks for God. . . .

 

[Iconoclast]

Everyone does what they will. If they hear Good News, their will is free to pursue it, or ignore it or even become hostile against it. Attitude toward the truth is a free choice.

God foresaw all free will choices before any creature even existed. He made provision for those whom He foresaw would rejoice at His Good News.

Many born to perfection rejected it and rebelled, falling from Heaven. If a creature is free to reject good, how much more so is he free to despise and reject evil, even if he is powerless to free himself from it.

You are once again describing fatalism and not biblical salvation.
You do not understand the fall into sin and death and the result of that.

 

[37818]

Attitude toward the truth is a free choice.

How? Truth being the only right choice. How is it more than half fail to choose it?

 

[MB]

LOL, you are desperate for a loophole.

Answer this one thing:
Were Solomon and the Levites chosen and elect by God, or were they pagan peoples who had no relationship with God?

The covenants God made with Abraham and David are irrevocable (see Romans 11). God elected them and chose them to walk as His people. Your verses do not make any argument for your assertion, but they make me chuckle at your cherry picking skills.

Save your stupid questions for those like you.
MB

 

[MB]

Open your eyes Austin.
1Ch_28:9 And thou, Solomon my son, know thou the God of thy father, and serve him with a perfect heart and with a willing mind: for the LORD searcheth all hearts, and understandeth all the imaginations of the thoughts: if thou seek him, he will be found of thee; but if thou forsake him, he will cast thee off for ever.

1Ch_28:21 And, behold, the courses of the priests and the Levites, even they shall be with thee for all the service of the house of God: and there shall be with thee for all manner of workmanship every willing skilful man

1Ch_29:5 The gold for things of gold, and the silver for things of silver, and for all manner of work to be made by the hands of artificers. And who then is willing to consecrate his service this day unto the LORD?an, for any manner of service: also the princes and all the people will be wholly at thy commandment.

Psa_110:3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

These verses prove the willingness of men.
MB

My doctrine is not a philosophy Yours is because you take scripture and add to it. Your doctrine is not provable. Who do you see in this post who is not willing? Besides your self
MB

 

[AustinC]

And people choose their walk of their own free will. This verse does not contradict that.

There corrupted choice is always, 100% of the time to rebel against God. Paul tells us that people, living in the flesh, can do nothing else. He tells us they are slaves (shackled) to sin.
You have no verse that gives slaves to sin, the freedom to burst their own bonds.

...through faith. Faith is a free will choice. Again, this passage confirms free will.

So you declare. Your problem is that the Bible NEVER declares what you assert.

Your ignorance of the verse (not even a passage by the way) is apparent.

Paul quotes part of Psalm 14:1 which talks about the nature of that species of fool (none of which category are righteous). He also talks about those who have turned aside, which is to say that they have abandoned the straight path or were formerly on the path, who persecute the people of God who are righteous and who have not turned aside. So it's about the righteous being persecuted by categories unrighteous.

Here is Psalm 14:1-7.
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers who eat up my people as they eat bread and do not call upon the Lord? There they are in great terror, for God is with the generation of the righteous. You would shame the plans of the poor, but the Lord is his refuge. Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion! When the Lord restores the fortunes of his people, let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.

It is clear you are not understanding.

But the Calvinist makes no attempt to understand the message of the Psalm. They immediate perform surgery on it and extract a single sentence out of its context, thus twisting it to make a Calvinist point about all people born of woman being in this category. That's blatant distortion with malice aforethought. It it plain that that idea is not what Psalm 14 is talking about at all.

I quoted the entire Psalm. Everyone can see how you mishandle the Word of God.

And yet well-meaning Christians fall for this distortion, hook, line and sinker. They are led into error and they remain content with it. They are led to believe that some scriptures just bounce around to different topics with every verse, none connected with the previous. This also is an error of judgement and a failure of imagination. The Holy Spirit is not such a simpleton when it comes to His literature.

Indeed, some of you cherry pick verses out of context without any fear you may be false teaching.

The bending and twisting of God's Word, to make it say whatever one prefers to hear or for others to hear has been inflicted upon mankind from the very beginning in the Garden. That purported brothers in Christ should do this to each other is frightening.

Your review of Psalm 14 is a perfect example of you doing this very thing.

The readers here can see what you have done. I have only to point them to your post.

 

[MB]

There corrupted choice is always, 100% of the time to rebel against God. Paul tells us that people, living in the flesh, can do nothing else. He tells us they are slaves (shackled) to sin.
You have no verse that gives slaves to sin, the freedom to burst their own bonds.

Slaves to sin escape by there faith in God. Paul said;\
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Believing is having faith If we believe we will receive grace.
MB

 

[AustinC]

Romans 1. They see, they know and they understand the truth. Some menchoose to exchange that truth for something they like better.

It seems you may not have read Romans 1:18-32. It does not support your assertion. Note that ALL men receive the wrath of God. They ALL exchange the truth of God for something they created to worship. That means that before God chose to ransom you, YOU were doing the same thing yourself. Stop trying to flatter yourself and other humans. God certainly doesn't say what you say about "some men."

For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things. Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error. And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

 

[AustinC]

Slaves to sin escape by there faith in God. Paul said;\
Act 16:31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.
Believing is having faith If we believe we will receive grace.
MB

No!!! They don't escape. God RANSOMS us by substituting Jesus in our place and thus setting us free.

Faith is not a "get out of jail free card." Faith is believing that Jesus fully paid for our ransom and He alone has set us free.

MB, what you stated is shameful. How is it you have missed the mark so badly?

 

[Iconoclast]

There corrupted choice is always, 100% of the time to rebel against God. Paul tells us that people, living in the flesh, can do nothing else. He tells us they are slaves (shackled) to sin.
You have no verse that gives slaves to sin, the freedom to burst their own bonds.

So you declare. Your problem is that the Bible NEVER declares what you assert.

Your ignorance of the verse (not even a passage by the way) is apparent.



Here is Psalm 14:1-7.
The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt, they do abominable deeds, there is none who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven on the children of man, to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all turned aside; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one.Have they no knowledge, all the evildoers who eat up my people as they eat bread and do not call upon the Lord? There they are in great terror, for God is with the generation of the righteous. You would shame the plans of the poor, but the Lord is his refuge. Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion! When the Lord restores the fortunes of his people, let Jacob rejoice, let Israel be glad.

It is clear you are not understanding.




I quoted the entire Psalm. Everyone can see how you mishandle the Word of God.



Indeed, some of you cherry pick verses out of context without any fear you may be false teaching.




Your review of Psalm 14 is a perfect example of you doing this very thing.

The readers here can see what you have done. I have only to point them to your post.

Yes....they all see it!