The Willingness of men

[Dave G]

For several reasons:

1) Six chapters before in John 6:44, the Lord Jesus makes the statement that no man can come to Him unless the Father does the drawing.
He then says, in John 12:32, that if He is lifted up, He will draw "all" unto Him.
Therefore, they cannot both be the same "drawing", or He would be lying in John 12:32 because only His Father can draw someone in such a way that they come to Him and believe on Him.

To me, since Christ cannot lie as He is God, then this must be another type of "drawing", and here my mind goes over to John 3:14-15:

" And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."

So that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
As I see it, there's the "all"...the "whosoever believes"...not all men, but all men out of every tongue, tribe and nation ( Revelation 5:9, Revelation 7:9 ).
The "world" that the Lord Jesus came to save, His people ( Matthew 1:21, John 10:11 ).


2) It seems to me that you've missed the significance of the remainder of the chapter, where the Lord Jesus tells the reader why the people who heard Him refused to believe on Him:
John 12:37-41.

God blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, just as Isaiah predicted would happen, and they could not believe.
This is known as "judicial blinding", and among "Calvinists" it is known as "reprobation"...
God hardening men's hearts against Him ( Romans 9:14-18 ) for His own purposes.

So, if the Lord Jesus is drawing all men to Himself at the same time as God is blinding their eyes and hardening their hearts so that they cannot believe, then He working against Himself, isn't He?


3) Read the rest of John 6:43-45, where it states that it is written in the prophets that those who come to Him shall be taught "of" ( by or from ) God ( Isaiah 54:13, Jeremiah 31:34 ), and every one who has heard and has learned "of" ( by or from ) the Father, comes to Him in belief.
In other words, no one comes to Christ except they learn of Him through His Father, through the word of God and by the power of His Spirit.

This is known by "Calvinists" as describing the process of "calling", which is an inward call towards the heart of a sinner that the Lord makes towards His elect, and no one else.

If the Lord Jesus is doing this in John 12:32, then according to John 6:37-47, all men would be saved ( universal redemption ),
because all who are "called" in the manner that John 6:44 describes, will come to Him unfailingly and be raised up at the last day.

 

[Dave G]

Your own words show that you put forward universalism, just because you don't agree does not change the reality of it.

I don't see him teaching universalism at all.
In fact, quite the opposite.

For example, take a good look at Matthew 11:27, Matthew 13:10-11, Mark 4:11-12, Luke 8:11.
God being selective in whom He reveals Himself to, is completely within the realm of not only His right to do, but what the Scriptures say that He does.

When you say draw G1670 in Jn 6:44 is irresistible then that must mean that draw G1670 in Jn 12:32 is irresistible or do we have another case of calvinists changing the meaning of words.

Except that the word "men" is in italics and not part of the Greek in John 12:32, and to me is clearly speaking with respect to God's elect.
As I see it, the meanings of the words are not what's relevant here;

The understanding of what's on the page is the difference.

So as I said you BF52 are promoting universalism as are all calvinists that support your view. Like it or not.

Again, I see him doing quite the opposite,
and anyone who supports his view is saying that God is selective and saves certain people according to His purposes, and damns others according to His purposes...
That He saves according to His mercy and compassion, and damns people according to His holiness and justice.

This is in complete harmony with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who does as He sees fit ( Daniel 4:35, etc ) with what is His.

I also think that you're forgetting something that is clearly taught in God's word:
We botched it, and He allowed it to happen ( Romans 1:18-32 ).
Whatever He does with us is just and righteous.

Reading your posts in this thread, I see you arguing against this universal and Biblical truth constantly.

Or you could actually trust what the bible says and drop your false view of scripture.

I cannot speak for him, of course, but I do trust what the Bible says;
Each and every word of it.
I can also say that I do not trust what you are teaching, because I do not see the Bible supporting it, when all is said and done.

In fact ( and in the details ), I see that @Brightfame52 is very much in agreement with me, and with the Scriptures, on a great many things,
independently of me ever having seen him face to face, or even interacting with him in any way except on this forum.

But I do see you teaching a form of universalism when you basically state that God draws all men...
not realizing that if He does drawn them universally, then according to the language of John 6:44, they will all be raised up by Jesus Christ at the last day ( which is only reserved for those who have believed on Him )...universally.

I encourage you to look at it again, and much closer my friend.
There's more to it than just the "drawing"...there's what happens when a person is drawn, and what the Lord does with those that are drawn.

 

[ad finitum]

I don't take my understanding of the Bible from John Calvin,
but I will say that to me, the drawing of God in John 6:44 is in context with all who are given ( and come ) to Christ in John 6:37-47, as well as John 6:64-65.
It is indeed "irresistible".

In other words, the passage describes that a person comes to ( trusts in, believes on ) Christ because they were given to Him by His Father.
Belief is equated with coming to Him, and in John 6:44, only those who are drawn by the Father will come to the Lord, and He will raise them up at the last day.

The two events are inseparably linked, and "the drawn" are the same who will be raised up when He comes again, at the last day of this "age", or rule by men.
The last day is the day that the Lord returns and gathers together His saints, both alive and "asleep", and is the first resurrection as Revelation 20:5 and 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 shows.

In addition, comparing both John 6:44 and John 12:32 all by themselves and isolating them from what is said in the words around them,
really does not do either of them justice, does it?
Let's see the passages in question:

" Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. 45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. ." (John 6:43-45 ) <------ "Inability" stated in no uncertain terms...

The only inability implied is for those who have failed to listen and learn as a prerequisite. It makes no mention of inability to listen and learn the teaching of the Father. Those who are drawn to the Father's teaching arrive at Jesus Christ.

That is the nature of the drawing.

 

[AustinC]

I know one thing for sure You certainly do not know.
MB

Find it your self.
MB

A very clear example that you are incapable of finding free will salvation being taught by Paul in Romans. In fact you show your avoidance of God's word while making empty accusations.

 

[AustinC]

In the Bible, people are never persuaded to faith in one thing or another against their will. From this observation of Bible truth we can develop a valid principle with which to make interpretation of scripture.

In this light we realize that all the potter/clay illustrations are based upon the attitudes of the clay that God is working with -- the quality of the clay is the result of free-will decisions made by that clay. If the clay is rebellious, God cannot make a vessel of honor from it but only of dishonor. If the clay is obedient, God can make vessels of honor from the them.

The hardening of Pharaoh's heart is not God forcing him to rebel but rather presenting him with proof of His power and righteousness as one might cast pearls before swine, which only serves to entrench the swine in his rebellion because he is annoyed by truth (see Romans 1). In the parable of Lazarus and The Rich Man even one risen from the dead has no power to persuade someone to choose the truth who is determined in their opinion that they don't like the truth. When the pharisees learn of Lazarus miraculous raising from the dead, after being in the grave 4 days, they wish to kill Lazarus and put that raised man back into the grave. Is God reaching into their souls and making a hard shell around their free will? According to the Bible, that is completely unnecessary.

Did we get that? Forcing a soul, in possession of free will, to irresistibly change its mind is not what God is about. It violates God's whole demonstration from Genesis to the Revelation. Did we get that? Scripture itself demonstrates the futility and the tyranny of forcing people to do what they don't want to do. The Exodus proves that miracles have no power to persuade people to change their minds.

God puts His message out there to prove free will to the angels, to make a demonstration to them about who it is that will choose the Gospel of their own free will, in spite of the accident of their birth into the kingdoms of this world, ruled by the Devil. God didn't change Lucifer's mind to cause him to rebel. Neither does God change mankind's mind to rebel against the Devil's kingdom by choosing deliverance from it. Because that would make the Devil's case that God is responsible for the decisions made by His creatures.

This ironic error of Calvinism is that it's making the Devil's case that God is responsible for changing the free will of any creature to serve His purposes, and that if God didn't like Lucifer's decisions, well then it's His own fault. After all, God is the one who tampers with free will. Any Calvinist would agree.

Everything in the Bible is consistent when we understand that fallen man's capability of putting his faith in the Gospel is not crippled by his fallenness. Man is capable of despising his condition and of longing for a way of deliverance, however impossible to him. And he is capable of seeing good when it comes and he is able to rejoice in it and to choose it freely.

Have you not read of Paul's conversion as he willfully went to persecute Christians?

Every person ever redeemed by God was redeemed against his or her will.

Romans 8:7-8 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

God disagrees with your assertion.

 

[Dave G]

The only inability implied is for those who have failed to listen and learn as a prerequisite.

Prerequisites would make anything that comes after them into works used to gain God's favor, would they not?
Those who have failed are then demerited and sent to the Lake of Fire, while those who did not fail to listen and learn are then rewarded according to their efforts.
That, my friend, is the essence of works...

Doing something to gain God's favor.
Yet, salvation is by grace, not of works lest any man should boast ( Ephesians 2:8-9 )...

In a case like you're describing, we as sinful men could then have the possibility of boasting, by being able to ( not necessarily doing it, but simply having the chance to ) take credit for those very same works and not trust in God's grace and mercy alone.

Either belief is a product of His grace ( Philippians 1:29 ), or it is a work used to get His grace released to us.
IMO, there is no in-between.

It makes no mention of inability to listen and learn the teaching of the Father.

As I posted above, here it is again.
Please pay particular attention to the bolded text:

" No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me." ( John 6:44-45 )

In order for someone to come to Christ, they must be drawn by the Father...otherwise they cannot come to Him.
In order for someone to be taught "of" God and learn "of" the Father, they must be drawn.

According to what I see in the passage, the two go hand in hand.

Those who are drawn to the Father's teaching arrive at Jesus Christ.

That is the nature of the drawing.

Amen.

 

[ad finitum]

Have you not read of Paul's conversion as he willfully went to persecute Christians?

Every person ever redeemed by God was redeemed against his or her will.

Romans 8:7-8 For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God’s law; indeed, it cannot.Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

God disagrees with your assertion.

The verse is quoted out of context. The context is about people who have chosen to set their walk after the Spirit or to set their walk after the flesh. Those are choices made by men.

 

[ad finitum]

Prerequisites would make anything that comes after them into works used to gain God's favor, would they not?

No. Hearing is not a work. Learning by hearing is not a work. Wanting to know more is not a work. Being drawn by the Father's message to Jesus is not a work. Free will decisions are not a work. Decisions to exercise faith in what one has heard and learned is not a work.

The idea that choosing to listen and to learn what one has heard is a work is false. It's untrue. It's error.

The idea that hearing the Gospel, learning about it and believing it is a work is directly contradicted by scripture.

 

[MB]

There is nothing more ignorant than a person teaching that God is wimpy, which is the free will teaching of God.

Paul laid out the position in his entire letter to the Romans where he destroys free will philosophy from start to finish. Read the whole letter. Memorize the whole letter. Submit to what Paul, by inspiration of God, tells you. You will abandon your current position when you do this.

Have you been conformed to the image of God?
MB

 

[Dave G]

Hearing is not a work.

I agree.

According to John 8:43-47, people hear because they are "of" God.
That makes it impossible to be a work of men, but rather a work of God.

Learning by hearing is not a work.

Again I agree, because a believer's learning by hearing is given to them by God and therefore cannot be a work of ourselves.

Wanting to know more is not a work.

Being drawn by the Father's message to Jesus is not a work.

Yet again I agree, because according to John 6:44, the drawing to Christ is done apart from anything that we do.

Free will decisions are not a work.

According to Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20, Psalms 10, Psalms 14, Psalms 53 and many more, man's will is not free, but is indeed in love with sin, rebellious to the core and our will as men is darkened ( Ephesians 4:17-19 ) to the point of being alienated from God.

Our wills are biased against God and His Son, not neutral, and definitely not towards Him

Any decision that we make, apart from God opening our hearts to listen to His words as He did for Lydia ( Acts of the Apostles 16:14 ), will never result in our desiring to come to God for salvation.
It is the spiritual brick wall that we simply cannot get over, under, around or through...

Because we don't want to, outside of His grace and merciful power over our own wicked flesh.

 

[Dave G]

Decisions to exercise faith in what one has heard and learned is not a work.

I agree.

Exercising what all men do not have ( 2 Thessalonians 3:2 ) unless Jesus Christ authors and finishes it for us ( Hebrews 12:2 ), and our Father gives it to us as a gift ( Ephesians 2:8 ) is what makes it the evidence of His work in us ( Hebrews 11:1 )...not the prerequisite to His grace.

Therefore, anyone who has true faith, again, has nothing to boast in except His mercy and compassion towards them.
They cannot take credit for any of it, since they had nothing to do with it being given to them.

The idea that choosing to listen and to learn what one has heard is a work is false. It's untrue. It's error.

I agree.

We as believers have chosen to listen and learn.
But God's grace and mercy were what was behind that choice.

Outside of the new birth ( being born again ), we remain in our dead-ness, spiritually speaking.

The idea that hearing the Gospel, learning about it and believing it is a work is directly contradicted by scripture.

Unless one places those ahead of God's grace ( which I see violates Romans 11:5-6 ), then they are the result of it.

Again, Ephesians 2:9 is true in this case and is affirmed by His word in many more places.
We cannot earn our way into His grace by doing something, neither can we remain in His grace by doing something.

That said, I can see that we are in disagreement.
Nevertheless, I wish you well, sir, and may the Lord bless you with His goodness.

 

[AustinC]

The verse is quoted out of context. The context is about people who have chosen to set their walk after the Spirit or to set their walk after the flesh. Those are choices made by men.

Paul has been contrasting between flesh and Spirit from chapter 1 on through. Read the whole letter and explain how it is out of context to say that people living in the flesh, under slavery to sin, cannot serve God.
You are looking for an excuse to reject what God clearly tells you.

 

[AustinC]

Have you been conformed to the image of God?
MB

I am justified by faith alone. I am being conformed as God sanctifies me. When I die I will be glorified.

 

[Silverhair]

I must admit that I find it perplexing that someone would hold so strongly to a theology {TULIP}

I don't see him teaching universalism at all.
In fact, quite the opposite.

For example, take a good look at Matthew 11:27, Matthew 13:10-11, Mark 4:11-12, Luke 8:11.
God being selective in whom He reveals Himself to, is completely within the realm of not only His right to do, but what the Scriptures say that He does.

Except that the word "men" is in italics and not part of the Greek in John 12:32, and to me is clearly speaking with respect to God's elect.
As I see it, the meanings of the words are not what's relevant here;

The understanding of what's on the page is the difference.

Again, I see him doing quite the opposite,
and anyone who supports his view is saying that God is selective and saves certain people according to His purposes, and damns others according to His purposes...
That He saves according to His mercy and compassion, and damns people according to His holiness and justice.

This is in complete harmony with the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, who does as He sees fit ( Daniel 4:35, etc ) with what is His.

I also think that you're forgetting something that is clearly taught in God's word:
We botched it, and He allowed it to happen ( Romans 1:18-32 ).
Whatever He does with us is just and righteous.

Reading your posts in this thread, I see you arguing against this universal and Biblical truth constantly.

I cannot speak for him, of course, but I do trust what the Bible says;
Each and every word of it.
I can also say that I do not trust what you are teaching, because I do not see the Bible supporting it, when all is said and done.

In fact ( and in the details ), I see that @Brightfame52 is very much in agreement with me, and with the Scriptures, on a great many things,
independently of me ever having seen him face to face, or even interacting with him in any way except on this forum.

But I do see you teaching a form of universalism when you basically state that God draws all men...
not realizing that if He does drawn them universally, then according to the language of John 6:44, they will all be raised up by Jesus Christ at the last day ( which is only reserved for those who have believed on Him )...universally.

I encourage you to look at it again, and much closer my friend.
There's more to it than just the "drawing"...there's what happens when a person is drawn, and what the Lord does with those that are drawn.

Dave you write well and as you say a number of times in the article, the conclusions you present are as calvinists see it or as you see it, that's fine. But when I have read through those texts I do not come to the same irresistible conclusion that you do.

If a limited atonement, or irresistible grace as the calvinists have it were true then that inevitably leads to those that are not included under those headings being damned. And since it is God that does it as you say then that would mean that God is the one the condemns them. The question is why would He condemn them. As this decision was made before time began then it cannot be based on sin or for that matter anything except Gods' choice.

So when I say that calvinism has God condemn billions to hell it is not because the bible says He does, it does not, it is because calvinist theology makes it so.

So are we going to see the texts of scripture differently, I do believe. While you may feel that calvinism is biblical I have come to the opposite conclusion. From all that I have read in calvinist texts or listened to from calvinists speakers I have to say I am not impressed.
On one hand they want to make God powerful so nothing is beyond Him then turn and say oh but He cannot do that and why because it does not fit into the calvinist theology.

I will just read and study the bible as I have for the last 60+ yrs and trust in Christ Jesus for my salvation

 

[Silverhair]

I am justified by faith alone. I am being conformed as God sanctifies me. When I die I will be glorified.

Austin you say you are justified by faith alone, so that would mean that you are saved because of your faith. Correct?
Just so were are on the same page here, justified means that you are accounted righteous before God or your saved. Correct?

But this is where the difficulty comes in since in the calvivnist "Ordo Salutis" the order of salvation, you have regeneration before faith. You have to be regenerated before you can believe. I do not say this but some of the major lights of calvinism say it.

Loraine Boettner says: "A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he is saved." (Loraine Boettner, Predestination, p. 101; cited by Laurence M. Vance, The Other Side of Calvinism, p. 521.)

Arthur W. Pink says: "A man is not regenerated because he has first believed in Christ, but he believes in Christ because he has been regenerated." (Arthur W. Pink, The Holy Spirit, Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1978, p. 55; cited by Ibid., p. 521.)

R. C. Sproul also says: "We do not believe in order to be born again; we are born again that we may believe." (R. C. Sproul, Chosen by God, p. 73; cited by Ibid., p. 521.)

So here we have the order of regeneration before faith and regeneration is equated to born again.
In calvinism the teaching that regeneration precedes faith cannot be divorced from divine election. For if God must take the initiative to act upon us in order for us to believe, then those who do believe do so by God’s election, and those who do not believe, do not believe because God has not elected them. This conclusion is inescapable.

So would it not be correct to say, not that you were justified by faith but that you were justified UNTO faith.

 

[AustinC]

Austin you say you are justified by faith alone, so that would mean that you are saved because of your faith. Correct?
Just so were are on the same page here, justified means that you are accounted righteous before God or your saved. Correct?

But this is where the difficulty comes in since in the calvivnist "Ordo Salutis" the order of salvation, you have regeneration before faith. You have to be regenerated before you can believe. I do not say this but some of the major lights of calvinism say it.

Loraine Boettner says: "A man is not saved because he believes in Christ; he believes in Christ because he is saved." (Loraine Boettner, Predestination, p. 101; cited by Laurence M. Vance, The Other Side of Calvinism, p. 521.)

Arthur W. Pink says: "A man is not regenerated because he has first believed in Christ, but he believes in Christ because he has been regenerated." (Arthur W. Pink, The Holy Spirit, Grand Rapids: Baker Book House, 1978, p. 55; cited by Ibid., p. 521.)

R. C. Sproul also says: "We do not believe in order to be born again; we are born again that we may believe." (R. C. Sproul, Chosen by God, p. 73; cited by Ibid., p. 521.)

So here we have the order of regeneration before faith and regeneration is equated to born again.
In calvinism the teaching that regeneration precedes faith cannot be divorced from divine election. For if God must take the initiative to act upon us in order for us to believe, then those who do believe do so by God’s election, and those who do not believe, do not believe because God has not elected them. This conclusion is inescapable.

So would it not be correct to say, not that you were justified by faith but that you were justified UNTO faith.

The faith that God gave me when he saved me by grace is the faith that justifies me before God, the righteous judge.
This isn’t difficult. You just have to read the Bible and agree with what it says instead of looking for loopholes.

 

[ad finitum]

I agree.

According to John 8:43-47, people hear because they are "of" God.
That makes it impossible to be a work of men, but rather a work of God.

This needs to be understood in the context of Jesus audience. He was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Israel are the people of God. He's not talking to unbelievers. The pharisees are believers. Jesus called Peter, "Satan" because he was thinking the things of men instead of the things of God. It is no different with the pharisees. Context, context, context.

Again I agree, because a believer's learning by hearing is given to them by God and therefore cannot be a work of ourselves.

What God is giving them is truth. God as the giver of truth is the magnet that draws men. It doesn't say He's giving them a volition that they didn't have before.

Yet again I agree, because according to John 6:44, the drawing to Christ is done apart from anything that we do.

Is exercising faith something that we do? Does that mean the faith is a work?

One gets the feeling that Calvinists equate faith with work. The Bible is at pains to deny this. Faith is not of works. By faith we receive grace. Receiving something we don't deserve by exercising faith is not work.

According to Romans 1:18-32, Romans 3:10-18, John 3:19-20, Psalms 10, Psalms 14, Psalms 53 and many more, man's will is not free, but is indeed in love with sin, rebellious to the core and our will as men is darkened ( Ephesians 4:17-19 ) to the point of being alienated from God.

Our wills are biased against God and His Son, not neutral, and definitely not towards Him

This is easily falsified by Romans 1. God is revealed and His existence and power are understood by the same men you claim have no ability to arrive at any knowledge or understanding of God whatsoever. God is perfectly understood by everyone. But not everyone is pleased with that reality. By the same token, not everyone is hostile to that reality.

If man is said to live in a slave market of sin, it is irrational to think such slaves are hostile of the possibility of becoming freedmen, as if they enjoy slavery simply because they were born to it. To entertain such a notion is to laugh.

 

[ad finitum]

Paul has been contrasting between flesh and Spirit from chapter 1 on through. Read the whole letter and explain how it is out of context to say that people living in the flesh, under slavery to sin, cannot serve God.

<snipped derogatory accusation and conceit of being a mind reader >

Sure and Christians are fully capable of walking after the flesh. It's the whole point of what he's saying. Many Christians are not serving God but are wallowing in sin and error. If they don't change course, they are heading for a destiny of everlasting loss of reward, of privileges and of proximity to the New Jerusalem in the eternal future.

 

[Silverhair]

The faith that God gave me when he saved me by grace is the faith that justifies me before God, the righteous judge.
This isn’t difficult. You just have to read the Bible and agree with what it says instead of looking for loopholes.

Not looking for loopholes just asking how you reconcile your theology with the bible. What calvinism says does not square with the bible. I am just pointing out what the calvinist texts you support say.
No since in being upset with me you should be upset with calvinism.

 

[AustinC]

Sure and Christians are fully capable of walking after the flesh. It's the whole point of what he's saying. Many Christians are not serving God but are wallowing in sin and error. If they don't change course, they are heading for a destiny of everlasting loss of reward, of privileges and of proximity to the New Jerusalem in the eternal future.

Indeed, however, the difference between the redeemed and unredeemed is the Spirit who enables the redeemed person to respond to God. Those who are not redeemed cannot respond to God. They are dead in their sins. They are not made alive with Christ. They are not born again. They are not new creations. We see this in John 3, Ephesians 2, and 2 Corinthians 5.
No matter how you slice it, God must choose to redeem you. The Bible tells us that God chose before the foundation of the world. At some point you need to accept what God tells you.