Theodicy

[JesusFan]

A deficiency in the fruits of the Spirit? Where did you get that?

Faith comes through hearing. And humility is often the result of trail and error and the circumstances...i.e. eating from a pig trough can do wonders to one's pride.

No. I am saying God provides what is needed for men to respond in faith, but not by effectual/irresistible means

.

The Lord personally elects to save on an individual basis all those whom are saved by His grace...

He applies effectually the Grace of jesus atoning death on Cross towards His elected out people, His :"faithful" remnant from anong all peoples...

And those are the ones whom will 'freely" rspond to the Gospel and be saved!

What you need to realize is that the drive to explain a truly free choice in the manner you are (i.e. "what determined someone to choose him?") is really just a game of question begging because it assumes that a deterministic explaination is required. Ciocchi, who debated Feinberg, put it this way: "the choice between available options "is what free will is all about . . ., and it is finally mysterious, beyond full explanation, for full explanations presuppose the very determinism the libertarian rejects..."

there is NO free will apart though from that God has, as he alone can have such!

mankind has the "free will" to decide, but that will is bound by the Will of God, and also the fact that we cannot decide some things, due to being "bound up" in a sinful state and nature!

 

[webdog]

mankind has the "free will" to decide, but that will is bound...

How do you not see how illogical this is? If it is "bound", it cannot be "free".

 

[Aaron]

A deficiency in the fruits of the Spirit? Where did you get that?

From your incomplete list of qualities which the rejector lacks.

Faith comes through hearing. And humility is often the result of trail and error and the circumstances...i.e. eating from a pig trough can do wonders to one's pride.

Here you say then one's experiences will develop the degree of one's humility. So humility is the quality that is lacking in the one who rejects Christ. Is that what you're saying?

No. I am saying God provides what is needed for men to respond in faith, but not by effectual/irresistible means.

What you need to realize is that the drive to explain a truly free choice in the manner you are (i.e. "what determined someone to choose him?") is really just a game of question begging because it assumes that a deterministic explaination is required. Ciocchi, who debated Feinberg, put it this way: "the choice between available options "is what free will is all about . . ., and it is finally mysterious, beyond full explanation, for full explanations presuppose the very determinism the libertarian rejects..."

So there is no deficiency? All things are equal and it's a mystery why one refuses and the other accepts? Is that what you're saying?

 

[Skandelon]

Here you say then one's experiences will develop the degree of one's humility. So humility is the quality that is lacking in the one who rejects Christ. Is that what you're saying?

Faith is what they lack.

Humility (or lack thereof) may be one of the reasons they have chosen not to believe what has been clearly made known.

So there is no deficiency? All things are equal and it's a mystery why one refuses and the other accepts? Is that what you're saying?

The deficiency I referred to was their corruptibility....otherwise known as "the ability to choose otherwise." For example, Adam was able to choose right, but he was also "corruptible," or able to choose otherwise. To deny this basic premise is to deny any rational or reasonable basis for moral accountability.

 

[Aaron]

Faith is what they lack.

Humility (or lack thereof) may be one of the reasons they have chosen not to believe what has been clearly made known.

So, one has no faith, until he hears the preachers, right?

 

[JesusFan]

How do you not see how illogical this is? If it is "bound", it cannot be "free".

That is the very point! NO free will in absolute sense apart from God...

We have free will to do as we will, its just some thing cannot will to due since we are sinners...

Incuding coming to Christ "of our own violation"

 

[JesusFan]

So, one has no faith, until he hears the preachers, right?

isn't faith part of the gift of God towards His elect though "in Christ?"

 

[webdog]

That is the very point! NO free will in absolute sense apart from God...

We have free will to do as we will, its just some thing cannot will to due since we are sinners...

Incuding coming to Christ "of our own violation"

...then it is not free will by the very definitions of "free" and "bound", and you need to employ anther word.

 

[JesusFan]

...then it is not free will by the very definitions of "free" and "bound", and you need to employ anther word.

NONE apart from God even have it!

 

[webdog]

NONE apart from God even have it!

...then we are not free to reject Him (which your camp states the reprobate do)

You can't have it both ways.

 

[JesusFan]

...then we are not free to reject Him (which your camp states the reprobate do)

You can't have it both ways.

No, you are indeed 'free" to choose to reject jesus, its just that being in a spiritually deprained, that would be all that you could be free to chose to do!

 

[humblethinker]

...then it is not free will by the very definitions of "free" and "bound", and you need to employ anther word.

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
This is one of my biggest problems I have with the idea of calvinism. It seems there are several english words that do not mean what they really mean.

 

[JesusFan]

:thumbsup::thumbsup::thumbsup:
This is one of my biggest problems I have with the idea of calvinism. It seems there are several english words that do not mean what they really mean.

The terms and words we use HAVE to be used per the Bible usuage though!

For example, Death means either physical/spiritual, depending upon the context!

Or ALL can refer to ALL, or the elect, depending on the context again!

 

[quantumfaith]

The terms and words we use HAVE to be used per the Bible usuage though!

For example, Death means either physical/spiritual, depending upon the context!

Or ALL can refer to ALL, or the elect, depending on the context again!

JF,

I agree, but it is also determined by "who" is reading the context. NNE is unbiased. Period. Calvinists are biased, Non Calvinists are biased. One simply has to decide for themselves which side of the creek to fish from.

 

[JesusFan]

JF,

I agree, but it is also determined by "who" is reading the context. NNE is unbiased. Period. Calvinists are biased, Non Calvinists are biased. One simply has to decide for themselves which side of the creek to fish from.

that is true!

just saying that ALL of us tend to "read" the Bible based upon our Theological "mental gridlock!"

 

[Winman]

that is true!

just saying that ALL of us tend to "read" the Bible based upon our Theological "mental gridlock!"

JF, has anyone ever told you that you are supposed to use exclamation points sparingly?

just saying!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Winman]

NONE apart from God even have it!

God said men have their "own voluntary will" in Lev 1:3.

Do you deny that?

And try answering the question, not asking another question.

Do you deny that God said men have their own voluntary will?

 

[preacher4truth]

This is one of my biggest problems I have with the idea of calvinism. It seems there are several english words that do not mean what they really mean.

Having a big problem with the idea of Calvinism because definitions ("english words that do not mean what they really mean") don't seem to match the theological truths it expounds is an unfortunate position to take, and is a copout of convenience.

Most who state this, or hold your position haven't truly studied it out, and resort to frivolous reason to dismiss it.

Irresisitible Grace is one of the biggest teachings of "Calvinism" that most haven't studied out, and yet these same fight against "it".

 

[JesusFan]

God said men have their "own voluntary will" in Lev 1:3.

Do you deny that?

And try answering the question, not asking another question.

Do you deny that God said men have their own voluntary will?

NOT in an absolute sense, for ONLY God has that, as His will is supreme and final...

Humans have will to decide things, just restricted/limited by sin in what can decide to do!