Theologians debate teachings behind 'Left Behind' novels

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by OVM Online:
Baptist Believer
Actually, it's a good thing to be "left behind
???????

Stay if you will.. I'm outta here!!

You think you are going to be destroyed by God? Perhaps you didn't read the reference (Matthew 24). Those taken are taken in destruction, and those who are left are the righteous. Read the passage carefully and notice the reference to Noah and the ark.

 

[onevoice]

BB. ..what version are you using? Not seeing where you are coming from. I'll examine it closer tonight after work and get back with ya.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by OVM Online:
BB. ..what version are you using? Not seeing where you are coming from. I'll examine it closer tonight after work and get back with ya.

The translation shouldn't make a difference, I've never seen that passage translated badly. For the record, I've looked at that passage in NASB, NRSV, NKJV and NIV. I've never translated that section from the Greek, but I've never heard any controversy about the translations themselves. I'm sure the KJV reads similarly.

Happy reading!

 

[onevoice]

I think I see where you are coming from now, but I would like to know your interpretation of the following scripture. Do you interpret it to be a part of the second coming rather than the rapture?? I am very interested in your viewpoint. I have never heard of anyone of any faith believing this way before.

1 Thessalonians 4:16 (KJV)
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV)
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:18 (KJV)
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Thanks for helping me to understand what you believe.

 

[tyndale1946]

Grasshopper said:The "Left Behind" novel series has given Christian fiction new respectability. That it may have but it has given biblical history a black eye! Check your church history and go back about 2,000 years as there is a better explaination then this junk that is on the market. Matthew 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled. Who was Jesus talking to his generation or ours? Once you discover what biblical history says you can take these Left Behind novels and throw them in the trash where they belong... There is a better answer if you search it out!... Brother Glen

 

[Daniel David]

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
Once you discover what biblical history says you can take these Left Behind novels and throw them in the trash where they belong...

Although I don't encourage Tim LaHaye, I wouldn't recommend Josephus as my biblical interpreter. Tyndale, Jesus was speaking of the generation that saw the events. Try to not use lost people to interpret the Bible for you.

 

[Johnv]

"Left Behind" is a work of fiction, as are the Chronicles of Narnia. I find it disheartening that people are using the "Left Behind" series as though it were biblical canon.

 

[tyndale1946]

PreachtheWord I feel everyone should have the opportunity to decide the issue for theirself. You are satisfied with your view and I am satisfied with mine. There are many views and many interpretations and all of Gods children should have the benefit from hearing all sides. I know yours as you know mine and the solution they come to is up to them... Brother Glen

 

[BrianT]

Originally posted by tyndale1946:
Grasshopper said:The "Left Behind" novel series has given Christian fiction new respectability.

Is there anyone besides me who tried to read the novels but found them very poorly written (from a literary standpoint, not just a doctrinally one)? I gave them an honest try, and I read the first book and half of the second, and simply couldn't take the amateurish style of writing any longer. The only good thing about the books that I can think of is that maybe they have sparked an interest in the Bible for some folks.

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by OVM Online:
I think I see where you are coming from now, but I would like to know your interpretation of the following scripture:

1 Thessalonians 4:16 (KJV)
16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
1 Thessalonians 4:17 (KJV)
17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
1 Thessalonians 4:18 (KJV)
18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Do you interpret it to be a part of the second coming rather than the rapture??

Yes, precisely. I understand this passage as a glorious depiction of the return of Christ. There will be a heavenly signal that everyone will know and understand (a shout with the voice of the archangel and the trump of God) and all of Christ’s followers will rush to meet the victorious returning King of Kings. Starting with the believers from the beginning of salvation history (Adam and Eve) all the way to the saints who have just died will be resurrected and will meet Him in the air. Then all those who are still alive will join them in a heavenly victorious throng to return to the earth for the final judgment and the start of the new heaven and the new earth. The mental picture I always get is one of a parade, where Jesus is entering a city and the people wait alongside the road until He passes – then they follow Him, never to leave His presence again.

I am very interested in your viewpoint. I have never heard of anyone of any faith believing this way before.

This interpretation is anathema in some circles, but I don’t think you can get around the fact that Jesus is comparing the judgment of the flood to the judgment at His return. Those who were not in the ark were “taken” to their death. Those who are “taken” when Christ returns are going to be taken to their destruction. You really have to twist the context to make it mean anything else.

Thanks for helping me to understand what you believe.

Thank you for your kind question and your willingness to hear another view!

 

[Baptist Believer]

Originally posted by BrianT:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by tyndale1946:
Grasshopper said:The "Left Behind" novel series has given Christian fiction new respectability.

Is there anyone besides me who tried to read the novels but found them very poorly written (from a literary standpoint, not just a doctrinally one)? I gave them an honest try, and I read the first book and half of the second, and simply couldn't take the amateurish style of writing any longer. </font>[/QUOTE]It’s not just you… I finally stopped reading after the first book. I would have stopped sooner, but I was reading the book at the request of someone else.

As a writer, I try to read well-written material to develop my editorial skills so that I can continuously improve my work. “Left Behind” was really undermining everything I know about three-dimensional characters and believable dialogue.

The interesting thing is that I’m sure Jerry Jenkins is a much better writer than the “Left Behind” series would indicate. My guess (and it is just a guess) is that he is not a very fast writer and he hasn’t had the time to develop and polish the text before it is published. They have those books on such a tight schedule that he has to be pounding them out day and night. I think people are reading second or third drafts at best…

I’m not a very fast writer myself so I plan to use the talents of several other local writers to assist me if my children’s series is ever published. That way we can keep the quality high while providing the series fast enough for the marketing department to promote a couple of new books a year.

The only good thing about the books that I can think of is that maybe they have sparked an interest in the Bible for some folks.

That may be true, but I just wish Tim LaHaye wasn’t introducing them to his brand of theology at the same time…

 

[tyndale1946]

Preachtheword said:

Tyndale, Jesus was speaking of the generation that saw the events.

... I didn't think you agreed with me... That is exactly what I said... This generation!... Jesus generation!... I'll not argue the point as it was stripped to the bone in the topic futurist... A generation is approximately 40 years and that generation saw those events and biblical and human history declare it so!... Let those search out what I say and make up their own minds?... Brother Glen

 

[onevoice]

Quote:
It’s not just you… I finally stopped reading after the first book. I would have stopped sooner, but I was reading the book at the request of someone else.
--------------------------------------------
Amen BB!! Me, too.

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Hello!

I am Fundamental Independent Baptist.

I brought a book 'Left Behind Series'- "Left Behind" about 4 years ago. Holy Spirit hinders me from being reading this book. Because I did tried to read this book, but I felt no peace in it.

It is unbiblical.

I was a pretribber before.

One day, my friends showed me of 2 Thess 2:1-3, and Matt 24:29-31. That how I left pretribulation camp 10 years ago.

I can't understand why so many Baptists still believe in pretribulation today, while it is not clear in the Bible?

2 Thess 2:1-3 is very clear telling us, that the gathering together will not come till come a falling away(apostasia) first, and Antichrist revealed.

2 Thess 2:1-3 is not hard to read for them.

I pray that many Baptists open their eyes to see the truth from the Bible.

Have a nice day!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[Bro. Curtis]

I believe most of us here are pretribbers. It's not a divisive issue, AFAIC, but one worth discussing.

I don't like to take just 3 verses and change the way I think about something. At first glance, 2Thess 2:1-3 could relate to a post-trib stance, but if you go to verse 7, we find that the restraining ministry of the Holy Spirit has stopped. I think this supports the pretrib stance because the biggest Christian influence in the world is....us Christians. With us gone, the Holy Spirit not around, no conviction of sin.

I also think that Paul might be referring to the fact that the Jews at the time expected Christ to defeat all their enemies, and he didn't. Verse 3 is talking about the coming of Christ to rule and reign on Earth, not the rapture.

Church-age Christians are promised salvation from the end-time wrath...
1Thessalonians 1:9-10, 5:1-9, Romans 5:9, Revelation 3:10

Jesus promises us mansions in Heaven.(John 14:1-3) If the rapture came at the end of the tribulation, the promise to church-age believers could not come to pass.

The Church cannot be overcome, but the tribulation-era saints will be.(Matthew 16:18, Revelation 13:7)

The witnesses for God, during the tribulation, is not the church, but the sealed Jews.(Revelation 7)

Yup...pretrib here.

 

[postrib]

...the restraining ministry of the Holy Spirit...

I don't believe the restrainer (2 Thessalonians 2:7-8) can be the Holy Spirit because many of us Christians will still be on the earth during the Antichrist’s rule (Revelation 13:7-10, 14:12-13), and no one can be a Christian without the Spirit (Romans 8:9).

Note that we see a single angel restraining Satan at the 2nd coming (Revelation 20:1-3).

Therefore, a single angel could be restraining the Antichrist.

...the coming of Christ to rule and reign on Earth, not the rapture...

I believe all of the following passages speak of the same coming and the same gathering together:

"I will come again, and receive you unto myself" (John 14:3).

"The coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him" (2 Thessalonians 2:1).

"The Son of man coming in the clouds... with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect" (Matthew 24:30-31).

"We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord... with the trump of God... shall be caught up together" (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17).

"They that are Christ's at his coming... at the last trump" (1 Corinthians 15:23, 52).

I believe the doctrine of a pre-trib rapture would require that the 2nd coming (Hebrews 9:28) be a 3rd coming, that the last trumpet (1 Corinthians 15:52) be the 9th from last (Revelation 8:6), and that the 1st resurrection (Revelation 20:4-6) be the 2nd, so that it would not really make sense of scripture.

...promised salvation from the end-time wrath...

Note that during the tribulation nobody in heaven says God's wrath "is come" until near the end of the tribulation, after the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15, 18), in the 7 vials of God's wrath (Revelation 15:1; Revelation 16), and none of the 7 vials are poured out on those of us who have obtained salvation; we are even blessed at the 6th vial (Revelation 16:15), that we might endure to the 1,335th day (Daniel 12:12).

In the pre-trib view, will those who "obtain salvation" in the tribulation be "appointed to wrath?" Aren't being "appointed to wrath" and "obtaining salvation" mutually exclusive?

"God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ" (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

...promises us mansions in Heaven.(John 14:1-3)...

Note that no verse says the rapture takes anyone any higher than the clouds.

Note that Jesus simply said "I will come again, and receive you unto myself" (John 14:3). He didn't say he would come back before the tribulation or that he would take us into heaven.

Jesus said "I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also" (John 14:3). Note that he says we will be where he is after he comes again. He doesn't say he will turn around and go back into heaven. And indeed we will be where he is after he comes again: on the earth during the millennium (Revelation 20:4-6, 5:10, 2:26-29).

I believe Jesus said "In my Father's house are many mansions... I go to prepare a place for you," to show why he was going, not why he was coming back, and to show that he still has great and eternal plans for us in New Jerusalem, where the Father will dwell with us after the millennium: "I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God" (Revelation 21:2-3).

...The Church cannot be overcome...

Some say the saints being overcome by the Antichrist in Revelation 13:7-10 can't be the church because "the gates of hell shall not prevail" against the church (Matthew 16:18). But the Bible says that we Christians will still be on the earth when the Antichrist arises (Revelation 14:12-13, 20:4), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-6).

Evil rulers have been given power to kill Christians from the very beginning of the church down until this day. It will not be any different in the great tribulation. Our dying under the Antichrist will be no different than the church's dying under the Roman emperors who persecuted them so cruelly.

Evil can prevail over our bodies, but never our spirits (Revelation 2:10).

Even though the Antichrist will be able to overcome many Christians physically, all the powers of hell will not succeed in eradicating the church from the earth, for some Christians will be "alive and remain" until the Lord’s 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15), and the tribulation will be shortened for their sake (Matthew 24:22).

Also, there's another way to look at Matthew 16:18. The "gates of hell" may not refer to Satan’s ability to attack the church (for nobody attacks with gates), but rather to his ability to keep the lost in bondage (Hebrews 2:14-15). When we preach the gospel to the lost and they are saved from hell and brought into the church, no power of hell can keep them (Acts 26:18).

The church is built upon the rock of Jesus Christ (1 Peter 2:6), who preached in hell (1 Peter 3:19, 4:6) and led those who believed out of the gates of hell and into heaven (Ephesians 4:8-10). The gates of hell did not prevail against the rock (Psalm 107:14-16).

...not the church, but the sealed Jews...

Note that the 144,000 are Christians who follow Christ whithersoever he goeth and are the firstfruits unto God and to Christ (Revelation 14:4), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

 

[Bro. Curtis]

Good rebuttal, you are strong in what you believe, but like I said, it's really not an issue for me. My study tells me pre-trib. My church is pre-trib, most of the Christians I know are pre-trib, we talk about this all the time.

Note that the 144,000 are Christians who follow Christ whithersoever he goeth and are the firstfruits unto God and to Christ (Revelation 14:4), and there are no Christians outside of the church (Ephesians 4:4-5).

I think this statement backs up the pretrib stance, not post.

I posted a few verses to back up what I believe, there are a hundred threads like this, and they usually degenerate into nastiness. So I'll just politely say pre-trib for me, and God bless you.

[ August 19, 2002, 07:02 AM: Message edited by: Mr. Curtis ]

 

[Bible Believing Bill]

If you are looking at Left Behind from a perspective of its theology then I would say that at best it promotes easy-believsim. Overall it does seem to say that if I don't get in now I can still sneak in after the rapture. Even with that message it paint a picture of the tribulation that most would not want to experience for themselves.

If you are looking at Left Behind as a work of fiction then I thoughly enjoyed it. I began reading it before I was saved and found it to be very entertaining. There are certian books that I call mind-candy and Left Behind falls into that catagory for me. My biggest complaint about the series is that the last several books have seemed more like half a book to me. Fiction series often use cliff hangers so that you will buy the next book, but Left behind seems to tell half a story, leaving the reader dissapointed instead of excited as a good cliff hangers should.

Orignally posted by Grasshopper I really don't have a problem with the series. Later in the article it mentions that half the readers do not consider themselves evangelicals. So maybe they are reaching people who otherwise would pay no attention to this sort of topic. My only concern is that people might take it all to be biblical.

As I mentioned above I started reading Left Behind before I was saved. The books did get me to start thinking what if it is true? That thought along with many other things, including the more importaint good Christian example of my wife led me to began exploring the bible, going to church and actually listening to the sermon, and finally to being saved. Don't get me wrong I am not saying that Left Behind was the reason I got saved, but I am saying it was one step in the process of getting me to come to MY LORD AND SAVIIOR, JESUS CHRIST.

Bill

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Hello!

Apostle Paul didn't say anything about Holy Spirit will be take out of the way - rapture in 2 Thess 2;7.

Paul was talking about Antichrist -"he" context start with verse 3 - "man of sin".

Verse 7 telling us, that Satan now already working mystery of wicked in the world today since Early Church - 1 John 2:18, and 4:3. Antichrist is now restraining from being to be revealed. Because it is not his time - verse 6. God knows time, when time comes, He will allow Antichrist to be reavealed.

Good example - Job. When Satan went up to heaven to see God sits on the throne. He asked God, for permission to touch Job's body. Satan can't do anything in his power, because he obeys God's authority.

Same with 2 Thess 2:7- Satan is now limited from doing greater miracles and deceive. Satan is now limited. God knows time, when times comes, He will allow Satan to be revealed, and to deceive people.

Antichrist will be take out of the way(midst- mystery)and then he shall be reaveled - verse 8.

Have a nice day!

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 - Amen!

 

[blackbird]

The hard thing about folks reading these series of fiction based on Bible--is that when I get ready to preach on something like the Rapture of the Church--and present the message based on the Truth of the Bible--someone will always, inevitably come up with some smart remark like, "Well, that ain't how its written in the Left Behind series!" or "That ain't what LaHaye said in that book!" So the danger is equating fiction with truth!