Theological Gymnastics

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

How do you explain,
Exodus places sacrifice of sacrifice of passover and eat of sacrifice of passover on Nisan 14,
while all the rest of the Law and OT place sacrifice of sacrifice of passover on Nisan 14, but eat of sacrifice of passover, on Nisan 15?

Let the show begin!
I shall be judge, because I in my third year dropped physical gymnastics to start theological gymnastics, and have been at theological gymnastics ever since.

 

[EdSutton]

How do you explain,
Exodus places sacrifice of sacrifice of passover and eat of sacrifice of passover on Nisan 14,
while all the rest of the Law and OT place sacrifice of sacrifice of passover on Nisan 14, but eat of sacrifice of passover, on Nisan 15?

Let the show begin!
I shall be judge, because I in my third year dropped physical gymnastics to start theological gymnastics, and have been at theological gymnastics ever since.

Judge not lest ye be judged. (Mt. 7:1 - TNT)

Plus:

Then he said, “Who made you a prince and a judge over us? (Ex. 2:14a - NKJV)

Not to even mention, I believe you to be attempting, albeit unwittingly, to confute and combine, the Passover meal that was eaten in haste, on 14 Abib/Nisan, as per Exodus, with the meal of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which all the OT places on 15 Nisan.

Ed

 

[Thinkingstuff]

Plus:

Not to even mention, I believe you to be attempting, albeit unwittingly, to confute and combine, the Passover meal that was eaten in haste, on 14 Abib/Nisan, as per Exodus, with the meal of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which all the OT places on 15 Nisan.

Ed

sweet, truthful and consice.

 

[annsni]

Ummm - I think the majority of us are not Israelites. I'm a child of God under the New Covenant. I don't need to worry about Passover.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ed Sutton, You guessed!

For your second combination, I'll award you a big plus, seeing in gymnastics it's all about the combination of individual movements of different degrees of difficulty.

But for your first combination, you loose at least one point, because falling off your apparatus, is not counted (or 'judged') a movement, but a failure.

Therefore you have one plus and one minus, which leaves you with zero points. I appointed myself the judge in this respect. You sommer promoted me to judge of your salvation. I do not take that as a compliment. Talking back to the judge cost you another point. So you will have to make up to get even again at 0 points on the scoreboard.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ed Sutton:
"Not to even mention, I believe you to be attempting, albeit unwittingly, to confute and combine, the Passover meal that was eaten in haste, on 14 Abib/Nisan, as per Exodus, with the meal of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which all the OT places on 15 Nisan."

GE:
You see how even the eye of the judge can falter. I gave you full scoring point of 1 for this movement, but I missed to see you landed outside the white line.

How? Your movement was,
"Not to even mention, I believe you to be attempting, albeit unwittingly, to confute and combine, the Passover meal that was eaten in haste, on 14 Abib/Nisan, as per Exodus, with the meal of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which all the OT places on 15 Nisan."

That's far outside the white line, because it is not "all the OT", but, all the OT outside Exodus.

Now do your movement again, as I have shown you!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Ummm - I think the majority of us are not Israelites. I'm a child of God under the New Covenant. I don't need to worry about Passover.

GE:
So for what are you commenting on this thread?
Or do I misunderstand you (as always, it seems)? Are you an Israelite - like the majority here - while insinuating I am not an Israelite and the only exception? Doesn't matter though, for Not one, ever saved, was saved, under the New Covenant; I don't need worry about that, for sure!

But you say you don't worry or don't need to worry about passover? Just read how careful God commanded the Isralites - whom he saved - had to 'observe this night": "A night to be carefully observed". Ja, especially since you are professing to be a Christian, since everything written to a Christian serves to .... I think you know the verse by heart.

However, "Christ our Passover", is not what the OT says; it's what the NT declares for a --- yes, for the saving truth of God; and unless Christ be a Christian's Passover Lamb I'm afraid he cannot revel in the truth of being under the New Testament.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

ES:
"Not to even mention, I believe you to be attempting, albeit unwittingly, to confute and combine, the Passover meal that was eaten in haste, on 14 Abib/Nisan, as per Exodus, with the meal of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which all the OT places on 15 Nisan."

GE:
How must I understand, " to confute and combine", "Passover meal that was eaten .... on 14 Abib"; "with the meal of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which all the OT places on 15 Nisan."

Thinkingstuff (more or less) applauded your observation with: 'pure' precise', but I doubt whther he saw what you are actually playing at?

But I see through your remark, Ed Sutton. It is this, that the Nisan 14 meal was the sacrifice being eaten, without UB; and the Nisan 15 meal was of UB, without the sacrifice; therefore two different menus, on two different occasions.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

With the exodus, UB was eaten only after the exodus, that is, after Israel, mark well: ON NISAN 14, immediately after midnight, exited. They had UB enough for until the LORD may have started to supply them with other food. They ate UB for several days after -- the seven days of UB-Feast indicates, they for seven days ate UB after they had left on Nisan 14. They did not simultaneous with ther exit on Nisan 14, eat UB. First time they ate UB was Nisan 15. Concluded; but concluded from Exodus! That was the first, and the last, first, Passover meal, and therefore that was the only Passover Meal of ONLY sacrifice being eaten. Afterwards, each and every passover meal would consist of both sacrifice and UB.

Although not the topic, I shall explain how it came about, next post.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

But before I do, a question to you Ed Sutton:
I have never seen your explanation of 'behn ha arbayim', but many times have seen you refer to it as, "between the evenings".
I want to take a guess what your explanation is --- I may be wrong, of course.
Is you explanation, 'midnight'? 'midnight between'? 'midnight between the two days'? 'midnight between the first day ending sunset and the next day beginning sunrise'?

I have seen another 'explanation' of an 'evening' half-way between the early evening and the later evening before proper night. But I don't think it is what you hold.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

It must be obvious for everybody, my guessed alternative implies a midnight to midnight reckoning of the day.
But Exodus does not allow it.
It says the whole night was the night to be observed: Nisan 14!
It says, "It came to pass at the end of the four hundred and thirty years- even the selfsame day! it came to pass that all the hosts of the LORD went out from the land of Egypt."
Out into and in the desert, occurred, Nisan 14 in the night after midnight, of Nisan 14. So a midnight to midnight reckoning is out of the question.

But if Israel went out on the fourteenth, and on the fifteenth arrived as far as Succot in the desert on Nisan 15, then indisputably a sunrise reckoning is implied. And first time eating of UB was on Nisan 15 - not on Nisan 14.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

But Lv and NB date the very event of actual going out of Israel IN THE NIGHT, Nisan 15!
And in the night of Nisan 15, it is s-a-i-d, they had to eat the lamb.
According to Exodus and the nature of a sacrifice can only be eaten after it had been slaughtered, the lamb was eaten, after sunset. And according to Leviticus and the nature of the bread can only be baked and eaten first thing on arrival after Nisan 14 on Nisan 15, the bread was in fact eaten together with the lamb during the night of Nisan 15. And so indeed was it after Exodus. The lamb and the UB were eaten together. They since have coincided, separate from the sacrifice as such. Two days became involved; no longer just Nisan 14. The only possible way was through moving the start and finish point from sunrise to sunset.


That is not to confute; that is to combine the way the Scriptures combined the two aspect or two factors of the original passover feast. The day became a 'great day', indeed, a 'sabbath day' of the greater Passover feast.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

On Nisan 14 leaven had to be removed from the land; he who did not heed, had to be excecuted. Utensils for the mixing and the baking of the dough had to be cleansed and prepared on Nisan 14, the selfsame day. After sunset, in the evening, both UB and lamb of sacrifice had to be cooked, and eaten, on Nisan 15.
The two elements were consumed in one meal.
Passover sacrifice eaten was not the night before the lamb was slaughtered, both by possibility, and commandment; UB was not eaten first time after fifteenth Nisan, and because it had to eaten in the Night of Nisan 15, it had to be eaten in the same night and same meal the sacrifice was eaten.

'Passover' was never, two meals.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

There has never been anything obscure about 'behn-ha-arbayim'. Young defines 'arbayim', "The dual of evening": Simply: "Between the two nights"; not, "between the two days"; so that its meaning is, simply, 'during day / day-time / daylight'.

The passover had to killed during day; it had to be eaten, after day, in the night.

 

[EdSutton]

Ed Sutton:
"Not to even mention, I believe you to be attempting, albeit unwittingly, to confute and combine, the Passover meal that was eaten in haste, on 14 Abib/Nisan, as per Exodus, with the meal of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which all the OT places on 15 Nisan."

GE:
You see how even the eye of the judge can falter. I gave you full scoring point of 1 for this movement, but I missed to see you landed outside the white line.

How? Your movement was,
"Not to even mention, I believe you to be attempting, albeit unwittingly, to confute and combine, the Passover meal that was eaten in haste, on 14 Abib/Nisan, as per Exodus, with the meal of the Feast of Unleavened Bread, which all the OT places on 15 Nisan."

That's far outside the white line, because it is not "all the OT", but, all the OT outside Exodus.

Now do your movement again, as I have shown you!

"Sigh!"

(That's my version of a heavy sigh, for those reading this thread.)

Sorry, Gerhard Ebersoehn, I'm the one 'inside the line' since "fifteenth day" (of any month) is never even mentioned in Scripture, until the giving of the Law of the feast days found in Lev. 23.

That phrase is not to be found in any of the three books that are commonly considered to precede Leviticus, namely Job, as well as (logically) Genesis and Exodus.

Hence, there would be no reason to mention the specific Feast Day of "Unleavened Bread" on 15 Abib/Nisan prior to this.

Merely read Lev. 23, (as well as other places that mention "fifteenth") without first attempting to score a perfect "10" on the 'Uneven Parallel Bars' competition in the 'Biblical Olympics' and this should be much clearer. (No, I will not quote the entire chapter, but merely some of the relevant verses, with the appropriate parts highlighted.)

1 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 2 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘The feasts of the LORD, which you shall proclaim to be holy convocations, these are My feasts.

3 ‘Six days shall work be done, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of solemn rest, a holy convocation. You shall do no work on it; it is the Sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.


4 ‘These are the feasts of the LORD, holy convocations which you shall proclaim at their appointed times. 5 On the fourteenth day of the first month at twilight is the LORD’s Passover. 6 And on the fifteenth day of the same month is the Feast of Unleavened Bread to the LORD; seven days you must eat unleavened bread. 7 On the first day you shall have a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it. 8 But you shall offer an offering made by fire to the LORD for seven days. The seventh day shall be a holy convocation; you shall do no customary work on it.’”


9 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, 10 “Speak to the children of Israel, and say to them: ‘When you come into the land which I give to you, and reap its harvest, then you shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest to the priest. 11 He shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted on your behalf; on the day after the Sabbath the priest shall wave it. 12 And you shall offer on that day, when you wave the sheaf, a male lamb of the first year, without blemish, as a burnt offering to the LORD. 13 Its grain offering shall be two-tenths of an ephah of fine flour mixed with oil, an offering made by fire to the LORD, for a sweet aroma; and its drink offering shall be of wine, one-fourth of a hin. 14 You shall eat neither bread nor parched grain nor fresh grain until the same day that you have brought an offering to your God; it shall be a statute forever throughout your generations in all your dwellings. (Lev. 23:1-14 - NKJV, text only)

Did you happen to notice that neither "Passover" nor "first-fruits" are said to be either "Sabbaths" or an "holy convocation", here? And in fact, the 'wave sheaf' was to be waved specifically, on the day after the Sabbath!

Ed

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Then, Ed Sutton, I am not able to point out any difference between your view and my view about the Passover. Neither was it my purpuse to find differences between us.

What I am trying to do, is to find an explanation for the very definite difference there is, between Exodus and the rest of the OT as far as the dating of the slaughter of the passover and the eating of the passover is concerned.

What I was able to find in your contribution so far, confirms my finding that there is this difference; but you have not given an explanation for, or rather, of it.

Or I lack the grey matter to see. Kindly help me out then, considering.

I lived with this difference for decades, happy with my first explanation. I still hold to that explanation - there is nothing wrong with it as far as I could find out, except that it is lifeless, and seems to have become irrelevant since the Advent.

Now I am convinced mind and soul I was graced with to see the Real Explanation of this difference, that it was no mistake of change or contradiction, but in itself is Prophecy, is eschatological, is pointing to Christ, finds its explanation in Christ: its fulfilment; its receiving of Sence and Essence, in Christ. In one thing: The Son of Man come into His Kingdom, the Kingdom of God, the Kingdom of Christ's Suffering and the Glory of God.

Technically in the simple thing of both the Sacrifice Slaughtered AND the Sacrifice Eaten once for all, on, Nisan 14, Jesus Christ being both the Beginning of the creation of God and the Great Omega of the Great Yom Yahweh.

I revel in this 'revelation'; in this gift -- I believe was given by the grace of God of discovery and satisfaction through and in our Lord Jesus Christ, even as at the table of His Last Supper.

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Or is your 'point' - without saying it to say, that when the word 'sabbath' occurs (in the OT), the Seventh Day Sabbath of the Fourth Commandment, is meant -- always, and without exception? So that First Sheaf Wave Offering must fall on the First Day of the week, so that Christ must have risen on Sunday, and Sunday must be the Christian day of worship-rest?

Now I see!
Ed Sutton, I with sore heart, decline!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Of course will you sigh heavily and think I'm nuts!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Now, stop Ed Sutton, Halt! Wait! You have indicated you are going to jump, obstacle set and mats ready behind; judges pen in hand, 'I'm going!' But oh my, you forgot the spring board! It's going to be a disastrous spectacle! Them judges letting their pens fall and with both hands cover their faces keeping a close eye between pointing and middle fingers .... No springboard, but ES comes storming on ...!

 

[Gerhard Ebersoehn]

Here we were busy with yet another factor that implied and confirmed a Sabbath-Resurrection! And I could not see why Ed Sutton was so opposing to the idea!