Theological Question Regarding Government

[StefanM]

I have a question:

For those who believe that a government is accountable to God (myself included) for its position on abortion...

Would it not seem appropriate that a government be held accountable to God for its policies toward the poor, widows, and orphans?

 

[Revmitchell]

Apples and oranges. Redistribution of wealth against the will of the people and deciding for the people how to distribute to those in need makes these programs more expensive than necessary. The governement is not efficient at handling money.

 

[StefanM]

Apples and oranges. Redistribution of wealth against the will of the people and deciding for the people how to distribute to those in need makes these programs more expensive than necessary. The governement is not efficient at handling money.

The Bible never makes that argument. The Bible does hold people accountable for how they treat the poor.

The will of the people is irrelevant. The will of an ungodly people will be corrupt.

Can you think of one scriptural argument why a government gets a "free pass" on the poor but not on abortion?

 

[Revmitchell]

The Bible never makes that argument. The Bible does hold people accountable for how they treat the poor.

The will of the people is irrelevant. The will of an ungodly people will be corrupt.

Can you think of one scriptural argument why a government gets a "free pass" on the poor but not on abortion?

Taking money from people against their will is very relevant. And handling issues with the poor via the government is poor stewardship.

Your logic makes government accountable for everything under the sun and we should go ahead and turn America into a theocracy. It is quite a pandora's box.

 

[saturneptune]

I have a question:

For those who believe that a government is accountable to God (myself included) for its position on abortion...

Would it not seem appropriate that a government be held accountable to God for its policies toward the poor, widows, and orphans?

I am all in favor of helping the truly poor, widows and orphans. There is a question as to whether this should be on the local church to step up more for the help or not. Lots of churches spend more for new buildings and elaborate entertainment than this ministry. The more churches do, the less government would have to do.

Now, what is the truly poor? This is what it is not. Those in their 20s and 30s who have never worked a day in their lives, sit around all day on crack or some other drug with their rotating girl or boy friends. There is a large population of these, and should not be helped by church or government. They can go to work to solve their problem.

Yes, we are accountable to God for such, regardless of the mode of delivery.

 

[saturneptune]

Apples and oranges. Redistribution of wealth against the will of the people and deciding for the people how to distribute to those in need makes these programs more expensive than necessary. The governement is not efficient at handling money.

Baloney, totally miss the point.

 

[targus]

I have a question:

For those who believe that a government is accountable to God (myself included) for its position on abortion...

Would it not seem appropriate that a government be held accountable to God for its policies toward the poor, widows, and orphans?

Not sure that I understand how a government would be accountable to God.

God judges individual people.

No doubt members of government will be individually accountable to God for their actions in their offical capacity just as they will be accountable to God for all of their other actions.

At the same time all citizens will be accountable for supporting immoral or sinfull actions of government officals and even for silence in the face of those actions.

 

[StefanM]

Taking money from people against their will is very relevant. And handling issues with the poor via the government is poor stewardship.

Your logic makes government accountable for everything under the sun and we should go ahead and turn America into a theocracy. It is quite a pandora's box.

The government has the authority to collect taxes, even against our will. (Rom. 13) I mean who really would voluntarily choose to pay tax? I want to pay tax because I want to submit to the proper authorities. I don't do it because I want to let go of my money.

It's a matter of consistency. I hear these very arguments used against abortion and gay marriage. Why not for poverty?

 

[StefanM]

Not sure that I understand how a government would be accountable to God.

God judges individual people.

No doubt members of government will be individually accountable to God for their actions in their offical capacity just as they will be accountable to God for all of their other actions.

At the same time all citizens will be accountable for supporting immoral or sinfull actions of government officals and even for silence in the face of those actions.

A government consists of people. That's what I mean.

 

[Revmitchell]

The government has the authority to collect taxes, even against our will. (Rom. 13) I mean who really would voluntarily choose to pay tax? I want to pay tax because I want to submit to the proper authorities. I don't do it because I want to let go of my money.

It's a matter of consistency. I hear these very arguments used against abortion and gay marriage. Why not for poverty?

And yet our country was founded on less government. Again throwing everything under the sun under the control of government is a pandoras box. Especially when it requires the shifting of wealth. No where in scripture does it say we should serve the poor via the government.

 

[StefanM]

And yet our country was founded on less government. Again throwing everything under the sun under the control of government is a pandoras box. Especially when it requires the shifting of wealth. No where in scripture does it say we should serve the poor via the government.

I do not care about the USA here. I care about the Bible. If the Bible contradicts the constitution, guess which one I think should go in the shredder?

My point is this: if government is held accountable for so called "national sins," then we must be consistent in our application.

Abortion is a sin. So is neglecting the poor.

 

[Revmitchell]

I do not care about the USA here. I care about the Bible. If the Bible contradicts the constitution, guess which one I think should go in the shredder?

My point is this: if government is held accountable for so called "national sins," then we must be consistent in our application.

Abortion is a sin. So is neglecting the poor.

Show me a scripture where where we are to provide for the poor via the government.

 

[targus]

A government consists of people. That's what I mean.

Yes. Then perhaps the question is will God hold me accountable for the decisions and actions of my government?

I would say yes, to the extent that I support those actions or am silent in my opposition to them.

But why just the government? You have much more control over your own choices and actions. If you don't believe that the government does enough for the poor then should you not be doing more yourself? Contributing your time and treasures for the good of the poor?

Telling others that the government should be doing more seems to less be effective than doing more yourself.

 

[StefanM]

Show me a scripture where where we are to provide for the poor via the government.

There won't be a scripture address this issue because the Bible was not written to people under democratic government. The question is not whether "we" are to provide but whether or not government is somehow exempt from certain moral requirements.

Some close examples, though:

Deut. 26:12. When you have finished paying the complete tithe of your increase in the third year, the year of tithing, then you shall give it to the Levite, to the stranger, to the orphan and the widow, that they may eat in your towns, and be satisfied.

The tithe was essentially a tax under a theocratic government.

Isa 10:1 Woe unto them that decree unrighteous decrees, and that write grievousness which they have prescribed;
Isa 10:2 To turn aside the needy from judgment, and to take away the right from the poor of my people, that widows may be their prey, and that they may rob the fatherless!

Isa 1:23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

Pro 31:9 Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.

Amo 2:6 Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Israel, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they sold the righteous for silver, and the poor for a pair of shoes;

Jer 22:15 Shalt thou reign, because thou closest thyself in cedar? did not thy father eat and drink, and do judgment and justice, and then it was well with him?
Jer 22:16 He judged the cause of the poor and needy; then it was well with him: was not this to know me? saith the LORD.

 

[StefanM]

Yes. Then perhaps the question is will God hold me accountable for the decisions and actions of my government?

I would say yes, to the extent that I support those actions or am silent in my opposition to them.

But why just the government? You have much more control over your own choices and actions. If you don't believe that the government does enough for the poor then should you not be doing more yourself? Contributing your time and treasures for the good of the poor?

Telling others that the government should be doing more seems to less be effective than doing more yourself.

The issue is a matter of consistency. This question isn't about me or you.

 

[Revmitchell]

There won't be a scripture address this issue because the Bible was not written to people under democratic government. The question is not whether "we" are to provide but whether or not government is somehow exempt from certain moral requirements.

Some close examples, though:

Deut. 26:12. When you have finished paying the complete tithe of your increase in the third year, the year of tithing, then you shall give it to the Levite, to the stranger, to the orphan and the widow, that they may eat in your towns, and be satisfied.

The tithe was essentially a tax under a theocratic government.

Isa 10:1 Woe unto them that decree unrighteous decrees, and that write grievousness which they have prescribed;
Isa 10:2 To turn aside the needy from judgment, and to take away the right from the poor of my people, that widows may be their prey, and that they may rob the fatherless!

Isa 1:23 Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.

Pro 31:9 Open thy mouth, judge righteously, and plead the cause of the poor and needy.

Amo 2:6 Thus saith the LORD; For three transgressions of Israel, and for four, I will not turn away the punishment thereof; because they sold the righteous for silver, and the poor for a pair of shoes;

Jer 22:15 Shalt thou reign, because thou closest thyself in cedar? did not thy father eat and drink, and do judgment and justice, and then it was well with him?
Jer 22:16 He judged the cause of the poor and needy; then it was well with him: was not this to know me? saith the LORD.

And back then it was not a bloated governement that was going to waste much of that money. Fact is government is not necessary. If I give someone 100.00 they get 100.00. if i give through the government 100.00 then they will get much less. Dealing with the poor is about handling of money. Dealing with abortion is not. I can divy out the money God has given me stewardship over better than the government. the abortion issue and the poor are apples and oranges. The government is not the answer to all of our woes.

 

[StefanM]

And back then it was not a bloated governement that was going to waste much of that money. Fact is government is not necessary. If I give someone 100.00 they get 100.00. if i give through the government 100.00 then they will get much less. Dealing with the poor is about handling of money. Dealing with abortion is not. I can divy out the money God has given me stewardship over better than the government. the abortion issue and the poor are apples and oranges. The government is not the answer to all of our woes.

You're missing the point.

Here's a scenario for you:

The Bible consistently condemns giving preferential treatment to the rich over the poor.

Why are some willing to spend billions to support government bailouts of major corporations in "corporate welfare" while refusing to expand help for the poor?

 

[Palatka51]

I have a question:

For those who believe that a government is accountable to God (myself included) for its position on abortion...

Would it not seem appropriate that a government be held accountable to God for its policies toward the poor, widows, and orphans?

Getting in the way of and hindering the duties of the Church to assist the welfare of the poor, widows and orphans can bring retribution from God upon Governments. In fact we might not have the social crisis's in our nation today if the Govt would let the Church do it's work in our schools. Every social decline can be traced back to the removal of the Bible and prayer from our schools.

In the Law we have this
Deuteronomy 27:17-19
17Cursed be he that removeth his neighbour’s landmark. And all the people shall say, Amen.
18Cursed be he that maketh the blind to wander out of the way. And all the people shall say, Amen.
19Cursed be he that perverteth the judgment of the stranger, fatherless, and widow. And all the people shall say, Amen.

Verse 19 seems to indicate a perverted govt action of judgment would cause bad things from God.

 

[targus]

You're missing the point.

Here's a scenario for you:

The Bible consistently condemns giving preferential treatment to the rich over the poor.

Why are some willing to spend billions to support government bailouts of major corporations in "corporate welfare" while refusing to expand help for the poor?

Perhaps you could offer some specifics. What additional government spending should there be for the poor?

Are not many of our nation's moral problems the result of simply handing out money to the poor? Look at the state of Black America. What percentage of Black children are born out of wedlock? What percentage of Black men are in prison?

 

[Revmitchell]

You're missing the point.

Here's a scenario for you:

The Bible consistently condemns giving preferential treatment to the rich over the poor.

Why are some willing to spend billions to support government bailouts of major corporations in "corporate welfare" while refusing to expand help for the poor?

I am not for government bail outs any more than I am for welfare programs. Again limited government.