Theological Question Regarding Government

[Palatka51]

Isaiah says this;
Isaiah 1:23-31
23Thy princes are rebellious, and companions of thieves: every one loveth gifts, and followeth after rewards: they judge not the fatherless, neither doth the cause of the widow come unto them.
24Therefore saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts, the mighty One of Israel, Ah, I will ease me of mine adversaries, and avenge me of mine enemies:
25And I will turn my hand upon thee, and purely purge away thy dross, and take away all thy tin:
26And I will restore thy judges as at the first, and thy counsellors as at the beginning: afterward thou shalt be called, The city of righteousness, the faithful city.
27Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.
28And the destruction of the transgressors and of the sinners shall be together, and they that forsake the LORD shall be consumed.
29For they shall be ashamed of the oaks which ye have desired, and ye shall be confounded for the gardens that ye have chosen.
30For ye shall be as an oak whose leaf fadeth, and as a garden that hath no water.
31And the strong shall be as tow, and the maker of it as a spark, and they shall both burn together, and none shall quench them.

 

[StefanM]

Perhaps you could offer some specifics. What additional government spending should there be for the poor?

Are not many of our nation's moral problems the result of simply handing out money to the poor? Look at the state of Black America. What percentage of Black children are born out of wedlock? What percentage of Black men are in prison?

I'm not speaking of any particular program. I'd prefer a common-sense approach that focuses on education and training with an expansion of access to health insurance.

 

[Palatka51]

Again Isaiah;

Isaiah 10:1-4
1Woe unto them that decree unrighteous decrees, and that write grievousness which they have prescribed;
2To turn aside the needy from judgment, and to take away the right from the poor of my people, that widows may be their prey, and that they may rob the fatherless!
3And what will ye do in the day of visitation, and in the desolation which shall come from far? to whom will ye flee for help? and where will ye leave your glory?
4Without me they shall bow down under the prisoners, and they shall fall under the slain. For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still.

 

[targus]

I'm not speaking of any particular program. I'd prefer a common-sense approach that focuses on education and training with an expansion of access to health insurance.

What educaton and training are you thinking of? We already have a public school system and just about anyone can go to college. I got my degree while working.

Actually health insurance isn't that expensive. Single male aged 26 - Blue Cross costs $35 a month.

 

[StefanM]

What educaton and training are you thinking of? We already have a public school system and just about anyone can go to college. I got my degree while working.

Actually health insurance isn't that expensive. Single male aged 26 - Blue Cross costs $35 a month.

It's not that cheap here in Tennessee. The problem is sometimes with pre-existing conditions. It's well-nigh impossible to get any significant condition covered. My wife (early twenties) and my son (infant) are under a policy with a $2500 deductible--costs $170 a month. Someone making $7-8 bucks an hour will have a hard time coming up with that extra money, especially since you have to earn the money, pay social security and taxes, and then buy the policy with the money left over. An older person with higher rates would have an even harder time. As an aside: we need to end this tax bias against individual coverage.

I'm thinking more along the lines of welfare requirements. If you get welfare, instead of forcing you to take a minimum wage job, I'd rather have you enroll in a college or trade school. I think we should make sure that child care is available in these cases. This may sound generous, but in the long run it's better to have an educated single mother who is able to provide for her family than an unskilled worker who will forever be dependent. High school is useless. It doesn't qualify you for anything but the military and McDonalds anymore.

 

[saturneptune]

The government does have a roll to play here. We just need to be sure those we help are truly unable to help themselves.

 

[targus]

It's not that cheap here in Tennessee. The problem is sometimes with pre-existing conditions. It's well-nigh impossible to get any significant condition covered. My wife (early twenties) and my son (infant) are under a policy with a $2500 deductible--costs $170 a month. Someone making $7-8 bucks an hour will have a hard time coming up with that extra money, especially since you have to earn the money, pay social security and taxes, and then buy the policy with the money left over. An older person with higher rates would have an even harder time. As an aside: we need to end this tax bias against individual coverage.

I'm thinking more along the lines of welfare requirements. If you get welfare, instead of forcing you to take a minimum wage job, I'd rather have you enroll in a college or trade school. I think we should make sure that child care is available in these cases. This may sound generous, but in the long run it's better to have an educated single mother who is able to provide for her family than an unskilled worker who will forever be dependent. High school is useless. It doesn't qualify you for anything but the military and McDonalds anymore.

I'm wondring why someone making $7 or $8 dollars an hour would get married to begin with. A man has an obligation to provide for his wife and children. If he doesn't have employment sufficient to do so before marrying perhaps it would be better to put it off until he is able to do so.

 

[Revmitchell]

It's not that cheap here in Tennessee. The problem is sometimes with pre-existing conditions. It's well-nigh impossible to get any significant condition covered. My wife (early twenties) and my son (infant) are under a policy with a $2500 deductible--costs $170 a month. Someone making $7-8 bucks an hour will have a hard time coming up with that extra money, especially since you have to earn the money, pay social security and taxes, and then buy the policy with the money left over. An older person with higher rates would have an even harder time. As an aside: we need to end this tax bias against individual coverage.

I'm thinking more along the lines of welfare requirements. If you get welfare, instead of forcing you to take a minimum wage job, I'd rather have you enroll in a college or trade school. I think we should make sure that child care is available in these cases. This may sound generous, but in the long run it's better to have an educated single mother who is able to provide for her family than an unskilled worker who will forever be dependent. High school is useless. It doesn't qualify you for anything but the military and McDonalds anymore.

I am all for programs that make them productive and are not opened ended. As long as the funds go toward free market business like public colleges of their choice to include religious and daycares not set up or run by the government.

 

[saturneptune]

I'm wondring why someone making $7 or $8 dollars an hour would get married to begin with. A man has an obligation to provide for his wife and children. If he don't have employment sufficient to do so before marrying perhaps it would be better to put it off until he is able to do so.

Because sometimes marriage is not controlled by a pay rate. Sometimes, one did have a good job, and lost it because it was shipped overseas. I dont think he would get a divorce because he now has an $8 an hour job.

 

[StefanM]

Because sometimes marriage is not controlled by a pay rate. Sometimes, one did have a good job, and lost it because it was shipped overseas. I dont think he would get a divorce because he now has an $8 an hour job.

FTR, I wasn't speaking of myself.

And, I see people where I live every day who don't make a ton of money. When you follow God's call to seminary, you don't always end up with a high paying job.

 

[saturneptune]

FTR, I wasn't speaking of myself.

And, I see people where I live every day who don't make a ton of money. When you follow God's call to seminary, you don't always end up with a high paying job.

We basically live in the same cost of living type place. I believe the other poster lives in Michigan, which is a totally different world.

 

[targus]

We basically live in the same cost of living type place. I believe the other poster lives in Michigan, which is a totally different world.

Yes, I live in Michigan. And it is a totally different world. We have been living in a one State recession for a couple of years now. I believe that we lead the nation in unemployment.

But my image of a Christian man is someone who goes out and works - no matter how hard or demeaning the work - no matter how long the hours - and provides for his family.

The problem that I see where I live is a union mentality that prevents people from looking ahead and thinking about getting retraining before their job is outsourced.

I have relatives that work in union jobs - and they seem to think that demanding something is enough. The idea of personal responsiblity for their station in life seems to be totally foreign to them.

 

[StefanM]

But my image of a Christian man is someone who goes out and works - no matter how hard or demeaning the work - no matter how long the hours - and provides for his family.

Sometimes even that's not enough, unfortunately.

 

[targus]

By the way, my neighbor is a Baptist pastor - well sort of - when he accepted the job the first thing that he did was take the word "Baptist" out of the church name.

Anyway, he apparently does not make enough to support his family as a pastor. His wife works long hours as a nurse and then works more hours as a voluteer at the church. The pastor on the other hand spends a lot of time at home (presumedly preparing sermons?) and does not take other part time employment.

It would seem to me that he would present a better public picture as a Christian - let alone as a pastor - if he were willing to really work hard to support his family. After all couldn't he compose beautiful sermons in his mind while mopping floors somewhere at night?

 

[StefanM]

The problem that I see where I live is a union mentality that prevents people from looking ahead and thinking about getting retraining before their job is outsourced.

I have relatives that work in union jobs - and they seem to think that demanding something is enough. The idea of personal responsiblity for their station in life seems to be totally foreign to them.

It's easy to get used to $60,000 factory jobs. People who started at the factory right out of high school don't have any idea about the difficulties others face...until that job is outsourced. Most of us can't gang up and demand ridiculous wages and gold-plated pensions.

The unions created their own monster. Instead of keeping to the basic things (safe working environment, some health benefits, decent pay), they've stretched the companies to the breaking point, thereby losing jobs in the process. I still feel sorry for the workers who lose their jobs, though.

 

[StefanM]

It would seem to me that he would present a better public picture as a Christian - let alone as a pastor - if he were willing to really work hard to support his family. After all couldn't he compose beautiful sermons in his mind while mopping floors somewhere at night?

Sermon preparation requires more than that. I'm not saying he shouldn't work, but menial tasks can get in the way. (See Acts 6) Preparing sermons is mentally, spiritually, and sometimes even physically taxing. It's not just a walk in the park or something you do on the fly (well..you're not supposed to).

Another matter is having a part-time job that will not require work on Sundays or Wednesday nights. A layperson could work an occasional Sunday or Wednesday night, but the pastor needs to be at church every time. Some areas also just don't have the jobs available. When I was in northeast Arkansas, businesses could be extremely selective because hardly any jobs were in the area. If you didn't have experience or weren't willing to work on Sundays regularly, you didn't get a job. Even if you had those qualities they were seeking, it was hard to get a job. I'm talking about grocery stores and fast food. Other businesses were even more selective.

 

[Revmitchell]

Sermon preparation requires more than that. I'm not saying he shouldn't work, but menial tasks can get in the way. (See Acts 6) Preparing sermons is mentally, spiritually, and sometimes even physically taxing. It's not just a walk in the park or something you do on the fly (well..you're not supposed to).

Another matter is having a part-time job that will not require work on Sundays or Wednesday nights. A layperson could work an occasional Sunday or Wednesday night, but the pastor needs to be at church every time. Some areas also just don't have the jobs available. When I was in northeast Arkansas, businesses could be extremely selective because hardly any jobs were in the area. If you didn't have experience or weren't willing to work on Sundays regularly, you didn't get a job. Even if you had those qualities they were seeking, it was hard to get a job. I'm talking about grocery stores and fast food. Other businesses were even more selective.

All this being very true still is not compelling for government intervention.

 

[StefanM]

All this being very true still is not compelling for government intervention.

I'm not saying it is. I was just responding to the other brother's post.

 

[Revmitchell]

I'm not saying it is. I was just responding to the other brother's post.

I see.:thumbs: :1_grouphug:

 

[dragonfly]

It's not that cheap here in Tennessee. The problem is sometimes with pre-existing conditions. It's well-nigh impossible to get any significant condition covered. My wife (early twenties) and my son (infant) are under a policy with a $2500 deductible--costs $170 a month. Someone making $7-8 bucks an hour will have a hard time coming up with that extra money, especially since you have to earn the money, pay social security and taxes, and then buy the policy with the money left over. An older person with higher rates would have an even harder time. As an aside: we need to end this tax bias against individual coverage.

A good argument for socialized health care, which I support wholeheartedly!