Theology of Separation

[evangelist6589]

I am reading a book called Set Apart by Kent Hughes. Its a conservative evangelical look at separation from the world. However it only covers one of the separation topics. I also have a small book called The Dividing Line which is a Fundamentalist look at the doctrine of Separation. However I may want something with more meat to it. I attend a Fundamentalist/separatist Baptist church and am such.

Has anyone read these books and if so what do you think?

Be Ye Holy: The Call to Christian Separation

Biblical Separation

Sadly many evangelical and Charismatic dismiss the doctrine of separation as "legalistic" yet do not want to hear the arguments for separation. This to me is the height of arrogance.


John

 

[preachinjesus]

I've read and heard the arguments for secondary separation and don't buy them for 75% (an approximation) of the cases they make. Often the determination for "separation" is not a significant theological issue but a point of peripheral preference.

I do, however, accept most arguments for primary separation when it comes to considering partnering with, clearly, non-Christian groups for the advancement of the Gospel.

So, let's have a good conversation about...but please know many of us have thought about this issue.

 

[Iconoclast]

I am reading a book called Set Apart by Kent Hughes. Its a conservative evangelical look at separation from the world. However it only covers one of the separation topics. I also have a small book called The Dividing Line which is a Fundamentalist look at the doctrine of Separation. However I may want something with more meat to it. I attend a Fundamentalist/separatist Baptist church and am such.

Has anyone read these books and if so what do you think?

Be Ye Holy: The Call to Christian Separation

Biblical Separation

Sadly many evangelical and Charismatic dismiss the doctrine of separation as "legalistic" yet do not want to hear the arguments for separation. This to me is the height of arrogance.


John

Every christian comes to learn about the biblical teaching of separation.
The thing is it does not resemble the fundamentalist version.
no facial hair
wear mennonite dresses to the beach
only white shirt and ties
no radio, no tv.
None of these items get at biblical separation....they get directly to legalism...which is what gets rejected:type:

 

[Luke2427]

I am reading a book called Set Apart by Kent Hughes. Its a conservative evangelical look at separation from the world. However it only covers one of the separation topics. I also have a small book called The Dividing Line which is a Fundamentalist look at the doctrine of Separation. However I may want something with more meat to it. I attend a Fundamentalist/separatist Baptist church and am such.

Has anyone read these books and if so what do you think?

Be Ye Holy: The Call to Christian Separation

Biblical Separation

Sadly many evangelical and Charismatic dismiss the doctrine of separation as "legalistic" yet do not want to hear the arguments for separation. This to me is the height of arrogance.


John

I used to preach against mixed bathing, country music, contemporary Christian music, pants on women, questioning the "man of God" (pastor), modern versions, the prom, Calvinism, and a host of other things.

I was an idiot.

I wish somebody had snathced me up by the nap of the neck and said something like, "Luke, you are a moron. I know you think you're right about these things but the ffact of the matter is that you are too stupid to even be able to SEE that you are wrong."

Nobody challenged my thinking. I needed somebody to force me to consider that not only was my thinking wrong- but more importantly- the way I developed my thinnking was HORRENDOUSLY flawed. That's WHY my thinking was wrong.

Usually when I hear about books like these you are asking about, they have something to do with that idiotic way of thinking that I once passionately embraced.

I hope you will be wiser than I was and be willing to consider that most of this stuff is as far from the Bible and truth and righteousness as Heaven is from Hell.

 

[Iconoclast]

:thumbsup:

I wish somebody had snathced me up by the nap of the neck and said something like, "Luke, you are a moron. I know you think you're right about these things but the ffact of the matter is that you are too stupid to even be able to SEE that you are wrong."

You should have gotten to the BB sooner....you have many in the luke24 fan club that say that now...except,,,,they are on the wrong side of the truth now!
:laugh::thumbsup::laugh:

 

[annsni]

I used to preach against mixed bathing, country music, contemporary Christian music, pants on women, questioning the "man of God" (pastor), modern versions, the prom, Calvinism, and a host of other things.

I was an idiot.

I wish somebody had snathced me up by the nap of the neck and said something like, "Luke, you are a moron. I know you think you're right about these things but the ffact of the matter is that you are too stupid to even be able to SEE that you are wrong."

Nobody challenged my thinking. I needed somebody to force me to consider that not only was my thinking wrong- but more importantly- the way I developed my thinnking was HORRENDOUSLY flawed. That's WHY my thinking was wrong.

Usually when I hear about books like these you are asking about, they have something to do with that idiotic way of thinking that I once passionately embraced.

I hope you will be wiser than I was and be willing to consider that most of this stuff is as far from the Bible and truth and righteousness as Heaven is from Hell.

Luke - In all seriousness, how did you separate from that? What helped you to see the light?

 

[seekingthetruth]

I used to preach against mixed bathing, country music, contemporary Christian music, pants on women, questioning the "man of God" (pastor), modern versions, the prom, Calvinism, and a host of other things.

There is a difference between seperatism and legalism. The church I attend teaches seperatism but not legalism.

My pastor has television, but his family doesn't watch Charmed, Spongebob, or Sex in the City, ect.

The women in our church (as well as the men) are taught to dress modestly, but pants are not forbidden.

We listen to secular music, but not music that promotes sex, drugs, drinking, ect. Granted there is very little music left that doesn't have these, but?

My pastor teaches that he is just a sinner saved by Grace just like the rest of us, and he encourages us to speak to him when we think he is in error.

The core of our church uses KJV because we believe it was translated from the most accurate text available, but we do not forbid, or teach against anyone using whatever version they can understand.

The prom is fine as long as the kids are supervised and behave.

We don't teach Calvinism, but neither do we teach against it either.

What we do teach is that there is no seperation between our "spiritual lives' and our "work lives' or 'social lives'. We believe that our totally of life should be ruled by our relationship with God, and that we don't leave that relationship at the door of the church when we are dismissed on Sunday. Our spiritual life should dictate how we live our work, social and other lives. It should be one, based on God's teachings to us.

To do that we have to seperate ourselves from certain aspects of the world in general. We have to live in this world, but we don't have to participate in the ungodliness of it. That is what my IFB church teaches.

John

 

[John of Japan]

I am reading a book called Set Apart by Kent Hughes. Its a conservative evangelical look at separation from the world. However it only covers one of the separation topics. I also have a small book called The Dividing Line which is a Fundamentalist look at the doctrine of Separation. However I may want something with more meat to it. I attend a Fundamentalist/separatist Baptist church and am such.

Has anyone read these books and if so what do you think?

Be Ye Holy: The Call to Christian Separation

Biblical Separation

Sadly many evangelical and Charismatic dismiss the doctrine of separation as "legalistic" yet do not want to hear the arguments for separation. This to me is the height of arrogance.


John

This thread has already gone awry with posters who have not read the books talking about the doctrine of personal separation (personal standards of drinking, smoking, etc.). Neither of the books you ask about are about personal separation per se, though they may mention that, but primarily about ecclesiastical separation. (Alas, both of these books are in Japan and I'm in the States on furlough.)

Dr. Fred Moritz is a personal friend, and his book is an excellent theology of separation, perhaps the best ever. He has an earned doctorate and is one of the leading scholars of fundamentalism, IMO. To anyone commenting on the doctrine of ecclesiastical separation without reading his book: chances are, you don't get it.

I also knew Dr. Ernest Pickering, now in Heaven, another of the leading scholars of fundamentalism, with a Th. D. from Dallas. His book, if I recall, doesn't even mention personal separation, but is strictly about ecclesiastical separation.

Several relevant points:

(1) The doctrine of separation is based on the holiness of God. Thus, it is not based on the idea that if we separate we ourselves become holy, which is a form of legalism. Only God can make us holy.
(2) The primary emphasis therefore, should be on separation unto God. This will then mean naturally that we separate from evil, since God is.
(3) In ecclesiastical separation, we are to be separate from heretical teachers and groups, since God is against such. For example, we fundamentalists do not cooperate with theological liberals because we wish to walk with God--and someone who does not believe in the deity of Christ (a typical liberal doctrine) cannot walk with God.

 

[Luke2427]

Luke - In all seriousness, how did you separate from that? What helped you to see the light?

A mirror.

I went to help a friend start a mission church. It was an IFB church. He and I were identical in philosophy and theology. I went to start a youth ministry for him and be his associate. We bought a big school bus and started picking up dozens of kids and I got a full time job. We worked together for about a year.

And I sat under him and his preaching. He was me and I did not at ALL like what I was seeing. He ripped those people and did not have strong textual support for what he was saying.

And I thought- could we be wrong on these things?

Do we really have Bible for these things?

Do these things really matter to God? Are there other things that matter to God a great deal more?

Since then I have questioned EVERYTHING I've ever believed.

I took EVERYTHING I thought was so and put it to as severe a test of scrutiny as I could.

I had good friends who went on this journey with me.

I am as different a preacher today as I could possibly be.

 

[matt wade]

My pastor has television, but his family doesn't watch Charmed, Spongebob, or Sex in the City, ect.

I get the others...but what's wrong with Spongebob?

 

[seekingthetruth]

I get the others...but what's wrong with Spongebob?

LOL, my wife and my pastor's wife both hate Spongebob. They say he is smart alleck, rude, and that the kid's learn sexual enuendos from him. They think that Spongebob is an anti-Christian influence on kids.

Then again, I used to love Road Runner, and even the liberals say that the coyote is too violent.

John

 

[menageriekeeper]

Scumbob? Well, nothing good comes from "bikini bottom".

Just one of the reasons I hate scumbob. I have to say, though, scumbob isn't rude usually, crude yes, rude not that I recall, though this is one show that is rarely on my watch list. the rest of what seekingthetruth says is right on.

(for those who haven't suffered through, bikini bottom is the name of scumbob's town.)

 

[annsni]

A mirror.

I went to help a friend start a mission church. It was an IFB church. He and I were identical in philosophy and theology. I went to start a youth ministry for him and be his associate. We bought a big school bus and started picking up dozens of kids and I got a full time job. We worked together for about a year.

And I sat under him and his preaching. He was me and I did not at ALL like what I was seeing. He ripped those people and did not have strong textual support for what he was saying.

And I thought- could we be wrong on these things?

Do we really have Bible for these things?

Do these things really matter to God? Are there other things that matter to God a great deal more?

Since then I have questioned EVERYTHING I've ever believed.

I took EVERYTHING I thought was so and put it to as severe a test of scrutiny as I could.

I had good friends who went on this journey with me.

I am as different a preacher today as I could possibly be.

Thank you for sharing! That must have been quite the journey for you!

 

[matt wade]

Yeah, Spongebob must be evil because the name of the town is Bikini Bottom.

 

[menageriekeeper]

You've lived in Florida too long Matt!

(lets see, how would my dad put it, you've become desensitized to the evil that comes from wearing bikinis. ) (tongue firmly in cheek!)

 

[Alive in Christ]

I used to preach against mixed bathing, country music, contemporary Christian music, pants on women, questioning the "man of God" (pastor), modern versions, the prom, Calvinism, and a host of other things.

I was an idiot.

Not according to the Westboro clan of fruitcakes out in Kansas. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Benjamin]

I was an idiot.

I wish somebody had snathced me up by the nap of the neck and said something like, "Luke, you are a moron. I know you think you're right about these things but the ffact of the matter is that you are too stupid to even be able to SEE that you are wrong."

:smilewinkgrin:

 

[JesusFan]

I am reading a book called Set Apart by Kent Hughes. Its a conservative evangelical look at separation from the world. However it only covers one of the separation topics. I also have a small book called The Dividing Line which is a Fundamentalist look at the doctrine of Separation. However I may want something with more meat to it. I attend a Fundamentalist/separatist Baptist church and am such.

Has anyone read these books and if so what do you think?

Be Ye Holy: The Call to Christian Separation

Biblical Separation

Sadly many evangelical and Charismatic dismiss the doctrine of separation as "legalistic" yet do not want to hear the arguments for separation. This to me is the height of arrogance.


John

We are indeed called to seperate from the ptactices of a secular society around us, and from those who claim religion, yet deny jesus Christ as saviour...

I am still looking for the biblical passage/verses that support seperate from fellow bethren who are part of the same faith/Body/baptism/Hope etc?

Seen baptists refuse to deal with other baptists just due to diiferences on areas of "freedom to choice' like music styles/bibleversions/ go to movies or not etc NONE of that affecting the core doctrines of the faith, but is left by God to :individual conscience/freedom" in christ!

Thats just splits between baptists, lord know we at times cannot stand with fellow Christians from another denomination/church altogether!

 

[annsni]

I think the ONLY time someone should separate from someone in the body of Christ is in a situation of discipline. Other than that, it's just preferences and stupid.

 

[John of Japan]

I think the ONLY time someone should separate from someone in the body of Christ is in a situation of discipline. Other than that, it's just preferences and stupid.

I sympathize with your position, since I'm the type that wants to get along with everyone. However, as a pastor who has three times had Charistmatics try to take away members (succeeding twice), I separate from all Charismatics to keep my sheep safe.

I was just with a pastor friend (who is not IFB like I am) who recently had a split in his church due to the insistence of the Charismatics on spreading tongues in the church. He's a dear friend, but I think he could have avoided the whole problem by separating in the start, and not letting any Charismatics in the church.

Because of all of this, I will practice ecclesiastical separation from any church I know to be Charismatic, even if they preach the same Gospel (and many of them do not).