Theology of Separation

[annsni]

I sympathize with your position, since I'm the type that wants to get along with everyone. However, as a pastor who has three times had Charistmatics try to take away members (succeeding twice), I separate from all Charismatics to keep my sheep safe.

I was just with a pastor friend (who is not IFB like I am) who recently had a split in his church due to the insistence of the Charismatics on spreading tongues in the church. He's a dear friend, but I think he could have avoided the whole problem by separating in the start, and not letting any Charismatics in the church.

Because of all of this, I will practice ecclesiastical separation from any church I know to be Charismatic, even if they preach the same Gospel (and many of them do not).

In my opinion, that's a case of discipline. There should NEVER be sheep stealing ever and for a church to start going through something like that, then it's definitely time to separate. I can totally understand being gun-shy around Charismatics now and I believe I would feel similarly in your situation. I don't think all Charismatics are bad, although I do disagree with them on things and things that they might say are essentials, but when you get a bad one, they are really quite bad.

ETA - I know it's not regular church discipline but maybe more of "body of Christ" discipline.

 

[JesusFan]

I sympathize with your position, since I'm the type that wants to get along with everyone. However, as a pastor who has three times had Charistmatics try to take away members (succeeding twice), I separate from all Charismatics to keep my sheep safe.

Would say that is regretable, as IF they were really Spirit filled Christians, would NOT try to pluck off your flock!

I was just with a pastor friend (who is not IFB like I am) who recently had a split in his church due to the insistence of the Charismatics on spreading tongues in the church. He's a dear friend, but I think he could have avoided the whole problem by separating in the start, and not letting any Charismatics in the church.

Think we can co exist together, as My baptist Church has those who believe in strict ceasing of Gifts, others they did not, its just all agree to focus on the fact that we are one in the Body IF we all allow the HS to fill us and live Christ out in us!

Because of all of this, I will practice ecclesiastical separation from any church I know to be Charismatic, even if they preach the same Gospel (and many of them do not).

believe that you and I would have fellowship with each other though, even IF we agree to disagree on this particular issue!

Think also there are BIG differences between those who holding to Gifts for today!
As there are word of faith, prosperity/name it claim it etc! heretical.
Modern day Apostles/prophets NO
Must speak in tongues/second act of grace NO

Think that we can agree to disagree on this area of discussion, as long as we as maturing Christians see this as being a side issue, that we can both see the Bible different on this, but also know that FAR more important is what we as saints would agree on!

 

[John of Japan]

Think that we can agree to disagree on this area of discussion, as long as we as maturing Christians see this as being a side issue, that we can both see the Bible different on this, but also know that FAR more important is what we as saints would agree on!

Well in one incident the couple came to our English service for years, but not our regular Japanese service. I trusted them. But they went behind my back and baptized a whole family in their bathtub, and turned the family against me, whereupon they quit the church. The Charismatic couple then quit too. In another case two living next to my leading couple tried to get them away from going to our church--sheep stealing.

My experiences with Charismatics have been 90% bad. The only good experience I've had was with a Christian martial artist, no connection with church. So, how am I supposed to trust Charismatics? Sorry, no offense to you, but I choose to separate.

 

[John of Japan]

In my opinion, that's a case of discipline. There should NEVER be sheep stealing ever and for a church to start going through something like that, then it's definitely time to separate. I can totally understand being gun-shy around Charismatics now and I believe I would feel similarly in your situation. I don't think all Charismatics are bad, although I do disagree with them on things and things that they might say are essentials, but when you get a bad one, they are really quite bad.

ETA - I know it's not regular church discipline but maybe more of "body of Christ" discipline.

Hmm. Well, I think what you are calling "body of Christ" discipline is what I'm calling ecclesiastical separation. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Martin Marprelate]

This is the position of the Fellowship of Independent Evangelical Churches in Britain:-

http://www.fiec.org.uk/AboutUs/Ecumenism/tabid/640/Default.aspx

Does anyone here practise two-stage separation? That is, do you not only separate from liberal/RC/charismatic churches, but also from anyone who doesn't separate? Then of course, there's three-stage separation.......

Steve

 

[JesusFan]

This is the position of the Fellowship of Independent Evangelical Churches in Britain:-

http://www.fiec.org.uk/AboutUs/Ecumenism/tabid/640/Default.aspx

Does anyone here practise two-stage separation? That is, do you not only separate from liberal/RC/charismatic churches, but also from anyone who doesn't separate? Then of course, there's three-stage separation.......

Steve

Again, where is the biblical mandate to seperate from fellow Christians who hold differing beliefs in"secondary" issues though?

And are ALL those who hold to Gifts contiuning to be seen as being in error/heresy enough to have seperation enforced between the bethren?

 

[John of Japan]

Again, where is the biblical mandate to seperate from fellow Christians who hold differing beliefs in"secondary" issues though?

And are ALL those who hold to Gifts contiuning to be seen as being in error/heresy enough to have seperation enforced between the bethren?

Question: Does speaking in tongues make you a bettter Christian?

"Can two walk together except they be agreed?" (Amos 2:2)

 

[jbh28]

Question: Does speaking in tongues make you a bettter Christian?

"Can two walk together except they be agreed?" (Amos 2:2)

I get into enough trouble speaking in one tongue...

 

[John of Japan]

I get into enough trouble speaking in one tongue...

I can blunder fluently in both English and Japanese. :smilewinkgrin:

 

[JesusFan]

Question: Does speaking in tongues make you a bettter Christian?

"Can two walk together except they be agreed?" (Amos 2:2)

NO! As ALL of what I am is due to Christ and the Cross, God saving gracetowards me, and THAT is complete in Him!

To me, its just another Gift of the Holy Spirit, and NOT all speak in tongues, as any/all of the Gifts are passed out to us by the Sovereign Will of the HS!

And FAR more important is to abide in Christ and the Word, and staying daily empowered by the HS!

Aswe need to realise that any gifts that we might have to use all would come from God, and to be used according to biblical order!

I am one who holds toGifts still operasting today BUT alsothat they MUST fit biblical guidelines, and if not... NOT to be used!

 

[John of Japan]

NO! As ALL of what I am is due to Christ and the Cross, God saving gracetowards me, and THAT is complete in Him!

To me, its just another Gift of the Holy Spirit, and NOT all speak in tongues, as any/all of the Gifts are passed out to us by the Sovereign Will of the HS!

And FAR more important is to abide in Christ and the Word, and staying daily empowered by the HS!

Aswe need to realise that any gifts that we might have to use all would come from God, and to be used according to biblical order!

I am one who holds toGifts still operasting today BUT alsothat they MUST fit biblical guidelines, and if not... NOT to be used!

This statement sets you apart from all other tongues speakers I've known or heard of. The usual belief is that the gift of tongues makes one a better Christian, closer to God. I reject that doctrine completely, since it leads to spiritual pride, as in "I spoke in tongues, and you won't be clsoe to God until you do too."

Since you are not a pastor, and with your position as stated, I would be able to fellowship with you individually. If you came to my church you would be welcome, but at the first sign you were telling other believers to speak in unknown tongues, you and I would have big problems.

 

[John of Japan]

This is the position of the Fellowship of Independent Evangelical Churches in Britain:-

http://www.fiec.org.uk/AboutUs/Ecumenism/tabid/640/Default.aspx

Does anyone here practise two-stage separation? That is, do you not only separate from liberal/RC/charismatic churches, but also from anyone who doesn't separate? Then of course, there's three-stage separation.......

Steve

That is often called secondary separation. I sometimes judge such cases as you have mentioned individually, but here is my fall-back position. If my church fellowships with fellow-travellers of liberal/RC/Charismatic churches, how will that affect my church people? Will it cause confusion? Will they believe that these heresies are okay? Will they believe, seeing the actions of the pastor of the compromising church, that such compromise is okay?

The truth is, in Hokkaido we have a fellowship of cooperating fundamental pastors, both Japanese and missionaries, that is a great blessing, and I see no need or Biblical mandate to fellowship with compromising churches. And the two other non-independent Baptist churches (Japan Baptist Convention) in our city are liberal and/or compromising.

 

[Winman]

I don't even like to pray with others, I am not sure who they are praying to. I definitely would not pray with a Mormon if he was leading the prayer, and I would be reluctant to pray with a Catholic if he was leading the prayer.

How do others feel about this?

 

[John of Japan]

I don't even like to pray with others, I am not sure who they are praying to. I definitely would not pray with a Mormon if he was leading the prayer, and I would be reluctant to pray with a Catholic if he was leading the prayer.

How do others feel about this?

My grandfather loved to quote Ps. 119:63, "I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." This is a two-pronged statement. First of all, I'm a companion in prayer or otherwise of those who love and fear God. However, the second statement is a limitation. I will not be a companion of someone who, though they might be saved, is not keeping the precepts of God. A Mormon or Catholic, even if saved, is not keeping the precepts of God by staying in their unbiblical religion. The same goes for a Baptist who is not keeping the precepts of God in other ways.

Separating from such people is actually an act of love. By showing disapproval of their actions and associations you show them the path back to truth. Too many believers nowadays are of the "Good Lord, good devil, let's hang out with anyone who says they are a Christian" variety. We need believers who will stand up against sin.

 

[seekingthetruth]

I don't even like to pray with others, I am not sure who they are praying to. I definitely would not pray with a Mormon if he was leading the prayer, and I would be reluctant to pray with a Catholic if he was leading the prayer.

How do others feel about this?

Many liberals argue that Judaism, Christianity, Islam, and Mormonism are all centered on the God of Abraham, and all can get you to heaven. (Even Billy Graham speculated that practicing other religions would get a person to heaven)

John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

So praying through Mary, the Pope, St Peter, Mohammad, John Smith, or even to God Himself without believing Jesus is the Messiah, is useless and unbiblical.

I will not participate in prayer unless it is with a Bible believing, New Testament Christian.

John

 

[Winman]

My grandfather loved to quote Ps. 119:63, "I am a companion of all them that fear thee, and of them that keep thy precepts." This is a two-pronged statement. First of all, I'm a companion in prayer or otherwise of those who love and fear God. However, the second statement is a limitation. I will not be a companion of someone who, though they might be saved, is not keeping the precepts of God. A Mormon or Catholic, even if saved, is not keeping the precepts of God by staying in their unbiblical religion. The same goes for a Baptist who is not keeping the precepts of God in other ways.

Separating from such people is actually an act of love. By showing disapproval of their actions and associations you show them the path back to truth. Too many believers nowadays are of the "Good Lord, good devil, let's hang out with anyone who says they are a Christian" variety. We need believers who will stand up against sin.

I loved your Grandad, he was a great man of God, I had a subscription to the Sword for years, and purchased many of his pamplets and tracts. I was a big fan of Curtis Hutson too.

What I loved about your Grandad was his love and kindness, you could feel and sense it in everything he wrote. He was a good man.

 

[John of Japan]

I loved your Grandad, he was a great man of God, I had a subscription to the Sword for years, and purchased many of his pamplets and tracts. I was a big fan of Curtis Hutson too.

What I loved about your Grandad was his love and kindness, you could feel and sense it in everything he wrote. He was a good man.

Excactly! John R. Rice was a fundamentalist separatist, but he separated from those he had to separate from with tears in his eyes and a broken heart. Ecclesiastical separation is not a pleasant doctrine, not one that builds joy, but for the purity of the church of Jesus Christ it is absolutely necessary.

 

[Winman]

Excactly! John R. Rice was a fundamentalist separatist, but he separated from those he had to separate from with tears in his eyes and a broken heart. Ecclesiastical separation is not a pleasant doctrine, not one that builds joy, but for the purity of the church of Jesus Christ it is absolutely necessary.

Yes, but he was a great scholar too. We have been doing a study of the power of the Holy Spirit for several months in SS now, and our pastor is using your Grandad's famous book on the subject. My pastor considers it the best book ever written on the Holy Spirit. I can't tell you how thrilled I have been with this study, I always love to study God's word, but this particular study has been especially exciting and enlightening.

Folks tend to be extreme. You have the Pentacostals who have gone overboard and beyond scripture, then the other extreme is a dead church with no Holy Spirit power. We are now learning if we be obedient, and pray always for the filling of the Holy Spirit we can have real power to win lost souls. Great book.

 

[JesusFan]

This statement sets you apart from all other tongues speakers I've known or heard of. The usual belief is that the gift of tongues makes one a better Christian, closer to God. I reject that doctrine completely, since it leads to spiritual pride, as in "I spoke in tongues, and you won't be clsoe to God until you do too."

Since you are not a pastor, and with your position as stated, I would be able to fellowship with you individually. If you came to my church you would be welcome, but at the first sign you were telling other believers to speak in unknown tongues, you and I would have big problems.

Think what has been a big blessing to me in this regards was that was NOT raised ina Christian home, nor attending any church growing up!
God saved me while attending College, and he has a sense of Humor as he used SCC to witness to me, and I attended local Assemblies of God for many yaers afterwards, BUT always reafd theologies from conservation Evagelicals, listened to solid teachers/pastors, NEVER paid heed to the hagins/Copelands/Hinn etc, to me ALL of them taeching heretical dictrines!

So that is why I am a "baptacostalist" and will not 'force' this on any other Christian, as its my understanding of the Bible, and you might very well have another!

To me secondary issue, not one to seperate divide on, as long as we respect each other postions! can still disagree, but in a Christ like fashion, and focus on essentials that we all shoudl agree upon as baptists!

 

[jbh28]

Excactly! John R. Rice was a fundamentalist separatist, but he separated from those he had to separate from with tears in his eyes and a broken heart....

Good point. There are times we must separate, but it shouldn't be a time of joy, but sadness. All to often it seems that people tend to be proud of their separation.